[dev1021]SP in non-leve parties

[Betelgeuzah]

I was going on this assumption, but I don't think I've mentioned it in this thread, so I'll say it again: The devs tuned the stupid fatigue system so that it'll kick in if we get about 80k SP within an 8 hour time span. Therefore, the dev's idea of "good SP" is somewhere around 10K/hour.

I don't think it is that hard to achieve 10k per hour of SP gain even with the current systems?

Secondly, even though the fatigue system (which is not stupid) kicks in after 80k continuous SP, the reality is much different. You can pretty much gain double that much SP in a week's time even with a slight fatigue.

You did not also answer my question. "There are not enough ways to get good SP", what does this mean? You listed leves and grouping, what am I supposed to look at? Are you simply not agreeing with the developers idea of 'good' SP?

Yes. Throughout this thread I have nearly always framed my points in the context of "SP/hr", so you can assume I am talking about maximizing SP/hr.

That's not the point, because you don't tell me whether you mean "maximum SP in an hours worth of exping" or "maximum SP in 5 hours of exping", for example. If you want to maximize your SP gain for 5 consecutive hours a different method is used than if you want to maximize your SP gain for just one hour.

Also, that's not an "efficient" way of doing it. You may end up with more SP when you're done, but you also take 2,3,4 (or however many times you are doing the same leve again) times longer. Not that many people can sustain a leve group for 3+ hours.

If is efficient if you want to gain more SP and do not have to care about the time spent. It is not efficient if time is a concern. There are two methods that both achieve the best results for whatever your time resources are. If you want the most SP over-all, you should leve-share. If you want the most SP in the smallest possible timeframe, you should leve-link instead. Both ways have their pros and cons, and are efficient.

Not really. Leve-linking is always better SP/hr than solo grinding.

Yes- but the point here is, is it good enough?

Say, theoretically if you could solo a rank in an hour but by doing leve-linking you could get a rank in 50 minutes (when everything involved has been taken into account)- sure, it's faster but is it fast enough to make the players feel it is worthwhile to build a party and go out there for the sake of 10 minutes of time saved?

This is important, because it's not enough that it's simply better SP/hr than the alternative- it has to be so good that the player wants to gain that advantage, and the alternative needs to be so slow that the player cares about getting that advantage too. If they think "eh, it's just an hour, not too bad" they are much less likely to go out there and group. But if they think "damn, another three hours to get a rank... by grouping I could be done in an hour!" the situation is completely different.

That's not what I was talking about. Players are always going to prioritize leves first since they are an easier way to get SP, and you can potentially get more SP/hr via leves than via grinding normal mobs.

I know that's not directly what you were talking about, but it is a factor that affects the problem you mentioned nonetheless. It's not just about "having leves" and "not having any leves", even if that is a factor too.

You can only raise the difficulty so much before you hit the dlvl 10 cap and don't get any more SP from raising the stars.

Up to rank 40 you can simply change to a higher rank camp?

In the worst case scenario, if you invite only leechers to your party, you can do Dunesfolk and get about 100-200SP per dog. If at least 3 of those other 7 party members had a leve to link, you'd be seeing SP gains of 500-800 instead. If you only invited 3 people who have leve links, then you end up getting 1000+SP per dog.

I know that having people with leves is better than having people with no leves, but that doesn't explain why you wouldn't invite people without leves if people with leves aren't available. That's the question here. Why not invite them in that case?

Partying is how you get the best SP, like it should be in an MMO.

It does. You can solo for okay SP (5K/hr-ish, or more, if you're rank 30 or lower), which is fine.

Then why is the 30mins required to build a party a big waste of time, if you can get 5k/hr SP during it?

While we technically have a variety of choices in how to get good SP, the majority of them suck.

Because there is not enough developer control, because we have a variety of choices and the developers can not balance their game properly because of it.

The problem is that the game is still in its early years, and not many people know what the best ways are.

The problem is, honestly, that the developers don't dictate what the best ways are and make it obvious. We are left to figure out the "best ways", and honestly, they won't be any good. We'll end up fighting one monster type in few select areas in the whole world, because that's the "best way" and there is nothing the developers can do about it (unless they control us instead of us controlling them).

In other words, I would not use too much "control", but rather make the system more user friendly so that the players naturally play the game in the "best" way.

That's what control is all about. The developers dictate what we should be doing, and we'll end up doing it. Either directly or indirectly. In the end it's just a different approach to achieve the same end result.

They don't need to control us by taking away more choices. I, as well as a lot of other people, find party SP grinding to be "fun gameplay experiences".

That's exactly what they need to do, and of course you will disagree with it, simply because the opposite of control is freedom- and the players like their freedom. But the reality is that the developers can not build a good game without controlling us, more or less. This problem will not be solved until they start controlling what we do and how we do it. The more choices (freedom) there is, the less they can control us. You, as well as other people, simply need to deal with the fact that they may not choose your way as the way they will enforce. One system is going to end up being a remnant of the past.

[Rentahamster]

I don't think it is that hard to achieve 10k per hour of SP gain even with the current systems?

It's not hard. In my previous post that I quoted, I specifically stated that you can get anywhere from 10-20k/hr in a grinding party.

Secondly, even though the fatigue system (which is not stupid) kicks in after 80k continuous SP, the reality is much different. You can pretty much gain double that much SP in a week's time even with a slight fatigue.

Yes, I know that you can power through fatigue if you choose to. You asked me what the developers' idea of "good SP" is, and I answered it. Approximately 10k/hr for 8 hours. This is what the devs consider the point at which you've gained enough SP and should probably start using a different class. It's pretty clear that this is their intention, otherwise the math would be different.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/978...igue-Explained

You did not also answer my question. "There are not enough ways to get good SP", what does this mean? You listed leves and grouping, what am I supposed to look at? Are you simply not agreeing with the developers idea of 'good' SP?

I did answer your question. You can leve or you can grind, but there are fewer ways to do it to get at least 10k/hour, and more ways to screw it up (more so at later ranks. 1-30 is now a cakewalk after patch 1.15).

That's not the point, because you don't tell me whether you mean "maximum SP in an hours worth of exping" or "maximum SP in 5 hours of exping", for example. If you want to maximize your SP gain for 5 consecutive hours a different method is used than if you want to maximize your SP gain for just one hour.

This is why I'm framing SP gain as a derivative of time, so that how much time you spend total is irrelevant. Only the rate matters.

If you want to maximize SP gain for 5 hours, you use the exact same method for maximizing SP gain for 1 hour: get a bunch of people with leves and then link them all.

If is efficient if you want to gain more SP and do not have to care about the time spent. It is not efficient if time is a concern. There are two methods that both achieve the best results for whatever your time resources are. If you want the most SP over-all, you should leve-share. If you want the most SP in the smallest possible timeframe, you should leve-link instead. Both ways have their pros and cons, and are efficient.

Wasting time is not efficient. Time is always a concern. Whether you play for only 2 hours a day, or 20 hours a day, time is always a concern if you are serious about maximizing your SP gain.

If you want the most SP in the smallest possible timeframe, you should leve-link

Yes.

If you want the most SP over-all, you should leve-share.

No. If you want the most SP over-all, you leve-link. Then when you run out of leves, you find more people who do have leves they are willing to link with you. If you can't find more people with links, then you go grind some normal mobs. This strategy will gain more total SP than a party that just shares each link individually and wastes all of their guardians favor.

Yes- but the point here is, is it good enough?

In the games current state, yes, it's good enough. There is much more incentive to party than there is to solo. If there wasn't, you wouldn't see so many shouts for leve parties in Uldah.

Up to rank 40 you can simply change to a higher rank camp?

You misunderstand. I'm talking about the uselessness of increasing stars if it takes the mob's level over the dlvl 10 cap. Read my blog post that I linked earlier. It shows you how SP is calculated in this game.

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...cicuid=1555795

Then why is the 30mins required to build a party a big waste of time, if you can get 5k/hr SP during it?

The 30 minutes is a waste of time, but once you get a decent party started, it is not a waste of time.

That's what control is all about. The developers dictate what we should be doing, and we'll end up doing it. Either directly or indirectly. In the end it's just a different approach to achieve the same end result.

I think we're arguing for more or less similar means, it's just that you're calling it "control", and I'm calling it "freedom"


I think we may have a few misunderstandings here so I'm just going to repeat my main points about what I want from this game:

I want a variety of fun activities to do that will at least get me 10k/hour

I want those activities to involve other people and encourage player interaction, cooperation, camaraderie, and strategy

I want these activities to be explained adequately, or at least, be able to be understood in a straightforward manner.


But anyway, we're straying from what the OP is talking about:

Can you please find a way to encourage traditional partying more?

At the start of the game, we had relatively more "normal" parties for SPing, on efts, raptors ,etc. Not saying that there are none now, but with Battle Guildleves providing more SP, as well as behests being somewhat more appealing than before, there has been a lack of SP groups..

Please find the right balance between the 2 (Now I'm not saying to nerf SP from leves, just improve SP in regular groups) so that regular parties are encouraged more..

I agree with everything Iron said.