The FFXIV Cash Shop is greedy

[Halivel]

Yeah I thought it was pretty obvious what I meant with that 100$ example.. you're taking it out of context and I hope not with awareness just to score points. I'll clarify just in case though.

That 5 items for 100$ was just an example to clarify how and why I believe the amount of items are more important to me instead of the price. Of course I know that it won't sell at that price. It wasn't an idea at all, it was just an example to give perspective.

I get it. It's just that we have to take into consideration that it's not as simple as it looks to be. Quantity and price both work in tandem, and they work in tandem with payment model of the game itself. No cash shop at all means higher sub and its increasing after some period of time. It's not a bad thing technically, but it will attract less players, and games are usually aimed at different kind of players, not only wealthy ones.

For same reason, cash shop with less quantity for a higher price has less potential than higher quantity for a lesser price. Yes, you can see the second as a bit more greedy model, but it gives more freedom and choice (and, in fact, possibility to spend less money in some cases) to those who buy these items.

So while your idea potentinally could work in ideal circumstances, it won't be that good in reality.

[SamRF]

I get it. It's just that we have to take into consideration that it's not as simple as it looks to be. Quantity and price both work in tandem, and they work in tandem with payment model of the game itself. No cash shop at all means higher sub and its increasing after some period of time. It's not a bad thing technically, but it will attract less players, and games are usually aimed at different kind of players, not only wealthy ones.

For same reason, cash shop with less quantity for a higher price has less potential than higher quantity for a lesser price. Yes, you can see the second as a bit more greedy model, but it gives more freedom and choice (and, in fact, possibility to spend less money in some cases) to those who buy these items.

So while your idea potentinally could work in ideal circumstances, it won't be that good in reality.

Yes and again, I generally agree what you're saying. As a player who gives feedback though I don't like this model.

Beside the sub cost argument, consider that Cash Shop may or may not drive players away from the game and stunt its player growth (I've seen FFXIV Cash Shop as argument against playing this game on other forums), the amount of players that are driven away would perhaps cost FFXIV more than current Cash Shop sales in terms of profit.

However there's no obvious indication Cash Shop is driving that many players away so it's not unreasonable to disregard this argument. I wouldn't say it's a meaningless argument though and I'm sure SE considers that (it's the reason there are no P2W items in Cash Shop).

[Halivel]

Unfortunatly, it doesn't work like that and the food is a fair example of customers behavior, a lot of them look at the price first and the quantity after. That makes they will pay more for less thanks to the false feeling they save money.
100g for 2€
90g for 1€90
People will take the one at 1€90 thought they pay actually 10 cents more, the price should be 1€80

Food is a good example of how consumer's mentality work, though it doesn't sit exactly well with ingame shops, at least for those categories we compare here. In case with food it's "catch them with price while also decieving them with the amount". When we talk about things like mounts or minions - we buy in pieces, which are whole numbers. If I buy 2 minions for 7€ in one in-game shop, while I buy 1 minion for 5€ in another, it's quite obvious that I either get more from 1st one or have the possibility to spend less if I like only one of two minions.

Yes and again, I generally agree what you're saying. As a player who gives feedback though I don't like this model.

Beside the sub cost argument, consider that Cash Shop may or may not drive players away from the game and stunt its player growth (I've seen FFXIV Cash Shop as argument against playing this game on other forums), the amount of players that are driven away would perhaps cost FFXIV more than current Cash Shop sales in terms of profit.

However there's no obvious indication Cash Shop is driving that many players away so it's not unreasonable to disregard this argument. I wouldn't say it's a meaningless argument though and I'm sure SE considers that (it's the reason there are no P2W items in Cash Shop).

It's a bit hard to count how much they can potentionally lose, too. For all the time I play (6 years) I spent about ~1500€ in amount I think (this includes sub, the game itself, all expansions in CE and some items from Mog Station. Also I'm not sure on the exact amount of money because in the past Russia had regional prices, plus exchange course changes daily so it can be ~1500 or a bit less). They most likely do much more than this from a single Mog Station item right after releasing it and also later with "catching up" purchases. Amount of potential players that were droven away by Mog should be quite significant to outplay it, so the loss is either even or less. I'm quite sure their finances department did their calculations on this, otherwise the way Mog Station works now would be already changed.

[Eldevern]

...

Micro-transactions are a suject of economy studies in itself. ^_^

People will make the difference between a minion at 5€ and one at 7€ but they will often prefer to buy one fantasia at 7€ rather than five at 31€.

All is in the catch-up price.

[Melichoir]

Yes and again, I generally agree what you're saying. As a player who gives feedback though I don't like this model.

Beside the sub cost argument, consider that Cash Shop may or may not drive players away from the game and stunt its player growth (I've seen FFXIV Cash Shop as argument against playing this game on other forums), the amount of players that are driven away would perhaps cost FFXIV more than current Cash Shop sales in terms of profit.

However there's no obvious indication Cash Shop is driving that many players away so it's not unreasonable to disregard this argument. I wouldn't say it's a meaningless argument though and I'm sure SE considers that (it's the reason there are no P2W items in Cash Shop).

It's a fringe argument. Basically most people look at upfront costs and decide if those upfront costs are worth the money or not. Would you pay...I dunno, 50 a month for a sub on the belief that everything ever developed would end up in game, or 15 a month and pay additional fees for items you can pick and choose from. Keep in mind with the former model, there would be no distinction between additionally developed items adn what would be in game as a 'default'. So there is no 'mogstation' for you to see "Oh, this is why its worth 50 a month." Most consumers wouldnt be down for this model for two reasons - the inability to quantify if 50 a month would be worth it, and the sheer up front cost. It also creates a huge barrier to entry for new players. If youre new to FFXIV and are told you need a 50 a month sub, how likely are you gonna be to drop that on top of 60 for the game itself.

And if were gonna be honest, the immediate push would would be things like "Gee for 50 a month, do I a butler too" and "This games sub is not worth 50 a month! It's way over priced. Look at what I can get by paying 15 a month for WoW, or look at GW2 structure" or what not. And you could say "Well look at this nice glamour you get" but then people would be "So what, thats part of the game and isnt worth the price point."

At least with a cash shop you allow people to pick and choose what they want to buy, rather than saying "you take it all or no deal." Cause frankly I dont spend enough per year on a cash shop that would justify a huge sub per month. Even if I bought 3 fantasias for 30 (for even numbers), in the course of a year that is only like 2.50 a month more.

[SamRF]

It's a fringe argument. Basically most people look at upfront costs and decide if those upfront costs are worth the money or not. Would you pay...I dunno, 50 a month for a sub on the belief that everything ever developed would end up in game, or 15 a month and pay additional fees for items you can pick and choose from. Keep in mind with the former model, there would be no distinction between additionally developed items adn what would be in game as a 'default'. So there is no 'mogstation' for you to see "Oh, this is why its worth 50 a month." Most consumers wouldnt be down for this model for two reasons - the inability to quantify if 50 a month would be worth it, and the sheer up front cost. It also creates a huge barrier to entry for new players. If youre new to FFXIV and are told you need a 50 a month sub, how likely are you gonna be to drop that on top of 60 for the game itself.

And if were gonna be honest, the immediate push would would be things like "Gee for 50 a month, do I a butler too" and "This games sub is not worth 50 a month! It's way over priced. Look at what I can get by paying 15 a month for WoW, or look at GW2 structure" or what not. And you could say "Well look at this nice glamour you get" but then people would be "So what, thats part of the game and isnt worth the price point."

At least with a cash shop you allow people to pick and choose what they want to buy, rather than saying "you take it all or no deal." Cause frankly I dont spend enough per year on a cash shop that would justify a huge sub per month. Even if I bought 3 fantasias for 30 (for even numbers), in the course of a year that is only like 2.50 a month more.

50$ is quite the exaggeration, I'd say 20$ entry would cover the Mog Station Profit.

[Melichoir]

50$ is quite the exaggeration, I'd say 20$ entry would cover the Mog Station Profit.

5 x 12 = 60 a year more....Thats a mount and a set of 3 fantasia about. In my case, Im not worried about that price point, but there's more items on the mogstation that would make this price point a net loss for SE.

Though you know, maybe there is a middle ground. You pay, I dunno, 25 a month on a 12 month fee, and you get whatever gets put onto the mogstation free of charge. Meaning, youre locked into a yearly sub and you pay more than a standard sub, but you get the benefit of whatever is released on mogstation. Call it a complete sub, or premium sub, or wahtever. You get to pay a sub and not deal with mogstation shenanigans. I mean its worth while if you spend more than 120 a year on mogstation.

[SamRF]

5 x 12 = 60 a year more....Thats a mount and a set of 3 fantasia about. In my case, Im not worried about that price point, but there's more items on the mogstation that would make this price point a net loss for SE.

Though you know, maybe there is a middle ground. You pay, I dunno, 25 a month on a 12 month fee, and you get whatever gets put onto the mogstation free of charge. Meaning, youre locked into a yearly sub and you pay more than a standard sub, but you get the benefit of whatever is released on mogstation. Call it a complete sub, or premium sub, or wahtever. You get to pay a sub and not deal with mogstation shenanigans. I mean its worth while if you spend more than 120 a year on mogstation.

Didn't think of that middle ground. It might be a decent compromise, however still hurts immersion and such since you'll be getting a bunch of items for no effort with ingame mechanics, the principle does get violated. By the way I don't really have that much of a problem for charging additional services like Fantasia or name change and such, since those don't really provide more content. Whenever I'm talking about Cash Shop I'm not really considering those additional services with it.

Just to entertain the thought, how would a supposed premium sub work exactly? I'd assume it would give you access to to the Mog Station items only when you are subbed? Like would the items become unavailable for use once the premium sub is cancelled? I suppose that's how it should work. I'm not sure if Fantasias and other additional services should be included there. Retainers should be included right?

What if they made it so you still need to grind for an item after purchase in Mog Station (or receive with this premium sub)? Like you unlock the ability to grind for the item instead of directly receiving it. Perhaps require certain duties/instances to be completed for certain amount of times or some kind of mob or fate grinding (perhaps offer multiple ways to grind for it). Doesn't have to be very grueling grind. If Mog Station items have to be grinded for after purchase AND there's a premium sub available giving access to all those items, then I'd personally be more satisfied with it as a middle ground.

[Halivel]

Didn't think of that middle ground. It might be a decent compromise, however still hurts immersion and such since you'll be getting a bunch of items for no effort with ingame mechanics, the principle does get violated. By the way I don't really have that much of a problem for charging additional services like Fantasia or name change and such, since those don't really provide more content. Whenever I'm talking about Cash Shop I'm not really considering those additional services with it.

Just to entertain the thought, how would a supposed premium sub work exactly? I'd assume it would give you access to to the Mog Station items only when you are subbed? Like would the items become unavailable for use once the premium sub is cancelled? I suppose that's how it should work. I'm not sure if Fantasias and other additional services should be included there. Retainers should be included right?

What if they made it so you still need to grind for an item after purchase in Mog Station (or receive with this premium sub)? Like you unlock the ability to grind for the item instead of directly receiving it. Perhaps require certain duties/instances to be completed for certain amount of times or some kind of mob or fate grinding (perhaps offer multiple ways to grind for it). Doesn't have to be very grueling grind. If Mog Station items had to be grinded for after purchase AND there's a premium sub available giving access to all those items, then I'd personally be more satisfied with it as a middle ground.

Not sure about the idea with grinding for technically pre-bought items. Would depends on price, but in general it looks like seasonal pass type of system, so it has some potential. The question is what kind of feedback such option would recieve from those who would use it, because I can see both cons and pros in it.

As for retainers: uhhhhmmm. Depending on how you implement it, 25$ sub can end up being not enough to cover it, I'm afraid. You can buy up to 6 retainers at 2$ each, which is 12$ per month and 124$ per year. So if we just give a green pass and unlock all 6, then sub + retainers alone do for 27$ per month, and we are still supposed to give access to other Mog Station items. So the hypothetical "premium sub" should either have some kind of customisable tiers where user decides what they want to include, or the price per month would be higher, up 35$ at least, it seems.

[Melichoir]

Didn't think of that middle ground. It might be a decent compromise, however still hurts immersion and such since you'll be getting a bunch of items for no effort with ingame mechanics, the principle does get violated. By the way I don't really have that much of a problem for charging additional services like Fantasia or name change and such, since those don't really provide more content. Whenever I'm talking about Cash Shop I'm not really considering those additional services with it.

Just to entertain the thought, how would a supposed premium sub work exactly? I'd assume it would give you access to to the Mog Station items only when you are subbed? Like would the items become unavailable for use once the premium sub is cancelled? I suppose that's how it should work. I'm not sure if Fantasias and other additional services should be included there. Retainers should be included right?

What if they made it so you still need to grind for an item after purchase in Mog Station (or receive with this premium sub)? Like you unlock the ability to grind for the item instead of directly receiving it. Perhaps require certain duties/instances to be completed for certain amount of times or some kind of mob or fate grinding (perhaps offer multiple ways to grind for it). Doesn't have to be very grueling grind. If Mog Station items have to be grinded for after purchase AND there's a premium sub available giving access to all those items, then I'd personally be more satisfied with it as a middle ground.

This is where hammering out the details would be at. Possibly the way it would operate is that 1 time items would become permanent (Mounts, Glamours, etc). You have to collect them though. So thats on you. Most Repeatable items and Account items wouldnt be part of it (Jump Potions, Dyes) with Phantasia being the exception. Have as many phantasias you want, but you can only pull one at a time. So no stockpiling them. Retainers operate as a separate service, but I suppose if we wanted to sweeten the pot, get 2 additional retainers for the sub duration. That Handles pretty much most of what youd get on mogstation.

The point is youd gain access to the stuff that people probably would want most - glamours/mounts. Youre locked into a sub so you cant sign up for premium, grab all the items, and sign off. repeatable items like dyes and the like would have to be excluded cause that would mess with MB since there is an in game equivilant of those. Fantasia is fine cause thats just redesign whenever and may be a big draw. Halivel's comment rpetty much explains how retainers probably wouldnt be a part of the model.