What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Bringing back DPS stance would indeed give tanks a way to create a better way for us to define a skilled group tank, between a regular old tank (one of the reasons I prefered the DPS/AGGRO stance choices of tanking). Would SE be willing to bring it back? Dunno. It's hard to say, cause more players would be scared of tanking again, but we would also get mroe experienced tanks back. So hard to say really.

Old tank stances were fine for JUST Warriors, no one else, they could offset every issue their stance brought, and the "one GCD" WAR had to spend gave damage, healing, and 20% damage mitigation. Unchained removed the damage penalty, and you had a baked in Convalescence to compensate the 25% max hp increase and Equilibrium also granted hp for free in Defiance, which offset swapping from Deliverance to Defiance.

For PLD/ DRK it was incredibly bad design, both had to cough up mana and GCD usage to swap and only had 20% damage reduction with no means to offset the damage penalty. Further, any request to change this clunk was met with feverent disapproval from WAR mains claiming the cost removal would be unfair...

Personally I would not like to see a return of Tank Stance versus DPS Stance, unless it's thoroughly thought out and implemented in a fair manner across ALL tanks not just catered to just WAR.

[Kabooa]

If your claim was true, variations in defensive stats in non-tanks would correlate with variations in their damage output. They do not.

What happened with Tank stances and accessories is you still gave up defense for damage. You can use whatever technical term you want to mask it, but that's what you did.

I said Attack vs Defense is the basic pendulum. The DPS roles have more than just attack vs defense to consider as they're the most volatile role in terms of what shifts. I'm not going to go into detail here, you can go read the DPS forums and hear everyone there make their case.

[ReiMakoto]

What happened with Tank stances and accessories is you still gave up defense for damage. You can use whatever technical term you want to mask it, but that's what you did.

I said Attack vs Defense is the basic pendulum. The DPS roles have more than just attack vs defense to consider as they're the most volatile role in terms of what shifts. I'm not going to go into detail here, you can go read the DPS forums and hear everyone there make their case.

The problem I have with the defence argument is that now we don't get a choice in the matter, tanks simply dont need the amount of defence we currently have and yet are penalised for having it, much like how some classes are taxed for having utility they don't use. Most weeks its not uncommon to see that the off tank across a fight have taken less damage than everyone else in the fight. Its like being told you're not allowed to have a cake because you've been given a truck load of bread. Sure bread is valuable in the right context, but when the bread isn't getting used you can't fault people for wanting cake.

[Kabooa]

The problem I have with the defence argument is that now we don't get a choice in the matter, tanks simply dont need the amount of defence we currently have and yet are penalised for having it, much like how some classes are taxed for having utility they don't use. Most weeks its not uncommon to see that the off tank across a fight have taken less damage than everyone else in the fight. Its like being told you're not allowed to have a cake because you've been given a truck load of bread. Sure bread is valuable in the right context, but when the bread isn't getting used you can't fault people for wanting cake.

"Penalized".

That's an odd way of saying "balanced around".

As a healer, I suppose they're "Penalized" for being able to sustain the party by not being able to tank damage or deal as much damage as the DPS.

As a DPS, I suppose they're "Penalized" for being able to deal a majority of the damage by not being able to tank or heal the party.

[ReiMakoto]

"Penalized".

That's an odd way of saying "balanced around".

As a healer, I suppose they're "Penalized" for being able to sustain the party by not being able to tank damage or deal as much damage as the DPS.

As a DPS, I suppose they're "Penalized" for being able to deal a majority of the damage by not being able to tank or heal the party.

Yeah, I feel penalised when im not getting any engagement out of that part of the kit, when literally all im doing for most fights this tier is pushing damage I feel penalised for that damage being a lower proportion of overall damage.

Healers are rewarded for smartly playing around their kit and sustaining the party while pushing damage, smart use of their kit directly leads to more damage, this is fundamentally good design. A DPS is rewarded far more for using their kit that a tank is by having greater depth of skills and more of a skill ceiling. Tanks are penalised because smart use of kit/ optimisation does not lead to as great a reward if any, their high defence that is not being used is hurting their damage rather than complementing it. In a perfect world for me I would overhaul tank kits so main tank and off tank have differing kits that complement the situation at hand, i.e. when tank stance is on skills interact to boost damage output when mitigating attacks correctly, whilst when off tanking you gain more direct damage abilities to flesh out more of a dps rotation.

But yes, I do think that for at least half of a tanks duties (the off tanking part) tanks damage is penalised because of their defence

[Kabooa]

Yeah, I feel penalised when im not getting any engagement out of that part of the kit, when literally all im doing for most fights this tier is pushing damage I feel penalised for that damage being a lower proportion of overall damage.

It's unfortunate that you feel that way, but the tank checkbook is balanced as is. It can use a small adjustment up, much smaller than anyone is asking for (15-35% so far this expansion).

You have to take away something to give them something. Sorry to say.

[Lyth]

It's unfortunate that you feel that way, but the tank checkbook is balanced as is.

There's no basis for you to make this statement. Sorry to say.

And even if you were privy to the dev's secret and arbitrary check-book of cost-benefit tallies, we're the ones expected to play this game. And if you don't offer the average player benefits that outweigh the costs of filling the role from their specific and subjective point of view, then it doesn't get filled. When consumers are giving feedback that they feel penalised for playing the role, that's where the devs have to listen up or lose out. You cannot math out somebody's experience. You can only listen to it and try to understand where they're coming from.

[Liam_Harper]

You have to take away something to give them something. Sorry to say.

Haven't they taken away enough from us yet...? Damage, self sustain, engaging gameplay. We're still waiting to be given something in return.

[Kabooa]

There's no basis for you to make this statement.

I do have a basis for that.

Just because you don't like the math doesn't make it wrong. Do it yourself and provide a more substantial case than "I don't like it."

Haven't they taken away enough from us yet...? Damage, self sustain, engaging gameplay. We're still waiting to be given something in return.

Show your sources, please, as well as adjusting them so they can be compared correctly. If you want to cheat, you can find my own in the other thread. It's probably around page 60 or so.

For Sustain, I'm assuming you mean Warrior and Dark Knight in dungeons, seeing as paladin has only gotten a technical boost, Dark Knight on bosses is mostly unchanged, and Warrior on bosses is better.

"Engaging gameplay". If you want that, argue for it, because 30 potency isn't going to give it to you.

[ReiMakoto]

I do have a basis for that.

Just because you don't like the math doesn't make it wrong. Do it yourself and provide a more substantial case than "I don't like it."



Show your sources, please, as well as adjusting them so they can be compared correctly. If you want to cheat, you can find my own in the other thread. It's probably around page 60 or so.

For Sustain, I'm assuming you mean Warrior and Dark Knight in dungeons, seeing as paladin has only gotten a technical boost, Dark Knight on bosses is mostly unchanged, and Warrior on bosses is better.

"Engaging gameplay". If you want that, argue for it, because 30 potency isn't going to give it to you.

"30 potency" might not give it to you, but people are satisfied (satisfied =/= engaging gameplay btw, in absense of the devs adding anything more engaging, satisfaction should still be maximised) by many different things and if people are more satisdfied by that they are right to argue for it. You seem to believe changing proportions of damage doesnt change anything, but people can feel more satified with different proportions, even if the net effect is the same. Superficial as it may seem, people derive there satisfaction from things in ways other people don't understand because its personal to them. Also its been a few years but i don't think new war has more sustain than bloodbath warrior, in heavensward if anything id put them about the same. As for DRK, its certainly less than stormblood on single target, vastly reduced mana recovery means less tbn usage, less heal due to no sole survivor, and the heal on soul eater was stronger as it scaled with the damage it did which could be boosted by dark arts.