What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?

[Lyth]

It's unfortunate that you feel that way, but the tank checkbook is balanced as is.

There's no basis for you to make this statement. Sorry to say.

And even if you were privy to the dev's secret and arbitrary check-book of cost-benefit tallies, we're the ones expected to play this game. And if you don't offer the average player benefits that outweigh the costs of filling the role from their specific and subjective point of view, then it doesn't get filled. When consumers are giving feedback that they feel penalised for playing the role, that's where the devs have to listen up or lose out. You cannot math out somebody's experience. You can only listen to it and try to understand where they're coming from.

[Kabooa]

There's no basis for you to make this statement.

I do have a basis for that.

Just because you don't like the math doesn't make it wrong. Do it yourself and provide a more substantial case than "I don't like it."

Haven't they taken away enough from us yet...? Damage, self sustain, engaging gameplay. We're still waiting to be given something in return.

Show your sources, please, as well as adjusting them so they can be compared correctly. If you want to cheat, you can find my own in the other thread. It's probably around page 60 or so.

For Sustain, I'm assuming you mean Warrior and Dark Knight in dungeons, seeing as paladin has only gotten a technical boost, Dark Knight on bosses is mostly unchanged, and Warrior on bosses is better.

"Engaging gameplay". If you want that, argue for it, because 30 potency isn't going to give it to you.

[ReiMakoto]

I do have a basis for that.

Just because you don't like the math doesn't make it wrong. Do it yourself and provide a more substantial case than "I don't like it."



Show your sources, please, as well as adjusting them so they can be compared correctly. If you want to cheat, you can find my own in the other thread. It's probably around page 60 or so.

For Sustain, I'm assuming you mean Warrior and Dark Knight in dungeons, seeing as paladin has only gotten a technical boost, Dark Knight on bosses is mostly unchanged, and Warrior on bosses is better.

"Engaging gameplay". If you want that, argue for it, because 30 potency isn't going to give it to you.

"30 potency" might not give it to you, but people are satisfied (satisfied =/= engaging gameplay btw, in absense of the devs adding anything more engaging, satisfaction should still be maximised) by many different things and if people are more satisdfied by that they are right to argue for it. You seem to believe changing proportions of damage doesnt change anything, but people can feel more satified with different proportions, even if the net effect is the same. Superficial as it may seem, people derive there satisfaction from things in ways other people don't understand because its personal to them. Also its been a few years but i don't think new war has more sustain than bloodbath warrior, in heavensward if anything id put them about the same. As for DRK, its certainly less than stormblood on single target, vastly reduced mana recovery means less tbn usage, less heal due to no sole survivor, and the heal on soul eater was stronger as it scaled with the damage it did which could be boosted by dark arts.

[Kabooa]

"30 potency" might not give it to you, but people are satisfied by many different things and if people are more satisdfied by that they are right to argue for it. You seem to believe changing proportions of damage doesnt change anything, but people can feel more satified with different proportions, even if the net effect is the same. Superficial as it may seem, people derive there satisfaction from things in ways other people don't understand because its personal to them. Also its been a few years but i don't think new war has more sustain than bloodbath warrior, if anything id put them about the same.

Which is fair.

I haven't said "Under no circumstances ever can tanks have more damage".

In fact in almost every 8th response there's a blurb about a small corrective adjustment that can happen to our current gamestate without upsetting anything, and even provided suggestions to allow greater gains, combined with basic examples of where decision making and thus gameplay come back into the fold.

It is incorrect to say "Tanks need more damage", but it is fine to say "Tanks want more damage". I concern myself mostly with the point "Tanks need more damage". When it's done under the guise of contribution, gameplay, or anything to try and mask it as necessity when in reality it's want.

I don't remember the exact specifications of warrior-only bloodbath in heavensward, or the role version. (Think it was 20% 20/90 for role), only that Steel Cyclone was the real offender, and that NF > Stormblood BB.

[Marxam]

I don't remember the exact specifications of warrior-only bloodbath in heavensward, or the role version. (Think it was 20% 20/90 for role), only that Steel Cyclone was the real offender, and that NF > Stormblood BB.

Bloodbath was roughly 25% heals from damage dealt for 30 secs and stacked with vengeance, in addition to Berserk (20 secs) increasing Attack Power by 50% which was insane when you think about it from a dps perspective since vengeance was no capped during that time. Also storms path was a flat 50% heal of damage dealt and did not scale with level unlike what we have now where it heals somewhere around 20% at lvl 80. It was insanely strong to those who know the BIIR rotation and essentially let healers dps for almost half a minute without worrying about the tank.

With regards to tank damage I think it's fine and its this whole meta of more dps that goes into every raid design. No longer is there a point where a phase transition penalizes you for too much dps like in coil. Honestly if they just redesign the fights to be more consistent with tanks keeping aggro like continuous adds or aggro resets and utilize rework tank stances back in the game I think the focus will shift from tanks need more damage to tanks need more utility.

[Kabooa]

Bloodbath.

Thank you, it's hard finding information on the old state of the game without scrubbing patch notes.

[BarretOblivion]

Bloodbath was roughly 25% heals from damage dealt for 30 secs and stacked with vengeance, in addition to Berserk (20 secs) increasing Attack Power by 50% which was insane when you think about it from a dps perspective since vengeance was no capped during that time. Also storms path was a flat 50% heal of damage dealt and did not scale with level unlike what we have now where it heals somewhere around 20% at lvl 80. It was insanely strong to those who know the BIIR rotation and essentially let healers dps for almost half a minute without worrying about the tank.

With regards to tank damage I think it's fine and its this whole meta of more dps that goes into every raid design. No longer is there a point where a phase transition penalizes you for too much dps like in coil. Honestly if they just redesign the fights to be more consistent with tanks keeping aggro like continuous adds or aggro resets and utilize rework tank stances back in the game I think the focus will shift from tanks need more damage to tanks need more utility.

Meh, they would have to nerf healers then to make teams rely on that utility, else, who cares really? DPS>Ultility if it doesn't increase the party's DPS.

[MerlinCross]

Meh, they would have to nerf healers then to make teams rely on that utility, else, who cares really? DPS>Ultility if it doesn't increase the party's DPS.

And I dislike that, but that could probably use its own topic. I just dislike that Utility in this game is either never use or must have it seems.