6.0 Bard complete rework please

[Kalise]

Really, SE has shot themselves in the knee with BRD.

Firstly, because of how they didn't abandon the Class > Job thing with the start of ARR, meaning that BRD is built upon ARC, so much of their core kit is purely using bows to shoot people.

So that the BRD aspect of the job is simply tacked on top, adding a few extra skills to the kit rather than having the job be crafted around being a bard with its focus entirely on songs and music.

This also means they have the awkward situation where people have to play BRD if they want to play a class that uses bows to shoot people, whilst also trying to make BRD feel like an actual bard.

Secondly, they're kinda screwed because they want to move away from heavy support classes. Due to how it affects the meta because buffs > all, which lead to the prominence that was 6 years of BRD being omnipresent in literally every static, with Trick Attack Ninja being close to the same prevalence.

This means it's much harder to accurately capture the feeling of being a Bard, even in XIV's more limited showing of BRD which is more or less just about buffing allies in combat with songs (Given we really just follow the path of a militarized bard, looking for songs that are usable by Gridania's gaurd)

[MPNZ]

Really, SE has shot themselves in the knee with BRD.

Firstly, because of how they didn't abandon the Class > Job thing with the start of ARR, meaning that BRD is built upon ARC, so much of their core kit is purely using bows to shoot people.

So that the BRD aspect of the job is simply tacked on top, adding a few extra skills to the kit rather than having the job be crafted around being a bard with its focus entirely on songs and music.

This also means they have the awkward situation where people have to play BRD if they want to play a class that uses bows to shoot people, whilst also trying to make BRD feel like an actual bard.

Secondly, they're kinda screwed because they want to move away from heavy support classes. Due to how it affects the meta because buffs > all, which lead to the prominence that was 6 years of BRD being omnipresent in literally every static, with Trick Attack Ninja being close to the same prevalence.

This means it's much harder to accurately capture the feeling of being a Bard, even in XIV's more limited showing of BRD which is more or less just about buffing allies in combat with songs (Given we really just follow the path of a militarized bard, looking for songs that are usable by Gridania's gaurd)

TBH, fixing the issues with haste canceling actions by having proper cancels or after images finishing canceled actions could open BRD to having a way more interesting flow and raise it's utility by syncing with how the songs affect it's archer toolkit and vice versa. So, the mixing is just not well handled in implementation and can be made more with a few changes (UI and affects) and fixes to issues which might be very difficult with the games code (via Dev team: please explain or show just how bad the code is).

I wish we could: party-wide haste in AP, MP refresh with blood letter/ROD/pitch perfect in MB, a circular aoe warden's, a party-wide NM, return foies requiem in some form, three shared stacks for ROD & BL, UI changes to better keep track of DoTs and other gauges, a second system for PP/RA/SV/notes/BL procs based on crit scaling (because that was fun in StB), Changes to make early levels not spr boring, apex Arrow to have a set cost (not all of it), SV becoming a resource, MP to be used again, et cetera

And just before you tell me it's like way to OP: this can totally be done requiring skill to upkeep certain effects like FR and Haste percentiles. And most jobs are super restricted or just dull, atm. IMO, all of the jobs area shell of what they actually could be

P.S. ShB and SW are still redundant and boring

[DPZ2]

Firstly, because of how they didn't abandon the Class > Job thing with the start of ARR, meaning that BRD is built upon ARC, so much of their core kit is purely using bows to shoot people.

So that the BRD aspect of the job is simply tacked on top, adding a few extra skills to the kit rather than having the job be crafted around being a bard with its focus entirely on songs and music.

The core kit was using bows to shoot people, sure. But there have been 7 years of additions to that kit, and the storyline is still about the Warrior of Light, not about the Support Person of Light.

I've played a 'support-style' Minstrel, and I would not want to subject a raid to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reGuIc3i2IE&t=47s

From experience, the so-called Support Roles never seem to work out in an MMO. I have only played one or two that even thought to demand a support role in a dungeon instance, and those never went over well.

Be happy with what you have, continue to suggest changes, but don't ever expect a complete reworking that would (a) upset all of us who are fairly happy with the way things are currently and (b) require a rewrite of at least 3 expansions worth of job quests and (c) require every Bard in the game to throw up there hands and ask "where the heck is my Bard?"

[Duelle]

Really, SE has shot themselves in the knee with BRD.

Firstly, because of how they didn't abandon the Class > Job thing with the start of ARR, meaning that BRD is built upon ARC, so much of their core kit is purely using bows to shoot people.

Abandoning class => job progression would have probably delayed ARR's launch a good while, since you'd have to not only change your expected party structures (plus all systems linked to that), but also have legacy characters make the transition. The shortcut here would be to just wipe all character data and have everyone start on a clean slate, but since 2.0's launch in part relied on legacy players that was not going to happen.

So that the BRD aspect of the job is simply tacked on top, adding a few extra skills to the kit rather than having the job be crafted around being a bard with its focus entirely on songs and music.

This also means they have the awkward situation where people have to play BRD if they want to play a class that uses bows to shoot people, whilst also trying to make BRD feel like an actual bard.

2.0's version of the job was a passable attempt at the song-heavy BRD, but had the main flaw of being tied to resource recovery. Your alternatives would be to design DPS gameplay around songs (Stormblood's BRD was the closest thing we got to this) or to reduce BRD's combat contributions in favor of spamming songs (which won't happen because a} a considerable number of people will not want to play that and b} they'd probably become mandatory for all serious raid groups if the song buffs are strong enough).

The bow gameplay issue could have been avoided if the devs had not completely dropped multiple jobs stemming from classes, though that would require them adjusting how job crystals affect the baseline classes and announce upfront that it wouldn't be something that will apply to every class (going against their all-or-nothing approach to design).

[Shurrikhan]

Really, SE has shot themselves in the knee with BRD.

Firstly, because of how they didn't abandon the Class > Job thing with the start of ARR, meaning that BRD is built upon ARC, so much of their core kit is purely using bows to shoot people.

...I much prefer a bow-wielding bard to any pure support. I see no reason to separate the augmentative kit of a musician/storyteller/person-who-generally-needs-to-be-able-to-understand-people-and-has-both-tremendous-memory-and-awareness from the weapon that makes the most sense for that added skillset.

Similarly, I don't want some guy doing nothing but shouting limericks at the top of his voice in the hopes that I'll notice his wit and get a Crit buff while I'm actually, visibly and viscerally, killing things. I prefer he slip in the witty comment... while shooting people, relying less on the suspension of disbelief that a weaponless singer is somehow going to provide the benefit equal to a greataxe, a star-throwing caster, and an odachi despite the limited and almost wholly damage-focused mechanics available to this game.

So that the BRD aspect of the job is simply tacked on top.

Chakra manipulation is merely added atop the Pugilist skillset, the one into which it best fits. Blood of the Dragon and leaping over tall buildings is merely added to spearmanship, the proficiency into which it best fits. Big guy with axe, quite sensibly, gets the 'even bigger when angry' augmentation. Every job works in the way you're describing.

Secondly, they're kinda screwed because they want to move away from heavy support classes. Due to how it affects the meta because buffs > all, which lead to the prominence that was 6 years of BRD being omnipresent in literally every static, with Trick Attack Ninja being close to the same prevalence.

Now this I'll largely agree with, though I feel the devil is in the details more than anything so fatalistic as the various strains of "Support can NeVEr bE bAlanCed" you'll find across certain forums here.

For me, it comes largely from (1) removing the systems of compromise (such as damage loss) that previously allowed for deeper support without being wholly and passively reliant on its maximal output, (2) not compiling buffs for additive effect rather than multiplicative effect, (3) neglect to balance the effectiveness of buffs across various jobs, and (4) neglect to design more fluid systems of variable output for Supports (such as swapping songs more frequently and fluidly while still forcing a use of each song over time).

This means it's much harder to accurately capture the feeling of being a Bard, even in XIV's more limited showing of BRD which is more or less just about buffing allies in combat with songs (Given we really just follow the path of a militarized bard, looking for songs that are usable by Gridania's gaurd)

I haven't leveled a Bard to 50 since 1.x, back when the quest chain mostly took you through the dew-grassed rolling hills of Coerthas, but there at least it seemed to give a very logical interpretation of the job: you, as someone capable of learning how people act and react, of memorizing songs and generally getting your way through intelligence, awareness, and charisma, were a squad leader and shot-caller. As befitting someone in that position, you wielded a bow. It suited your nature and kept you at range to act as part of the squad, to direct it, and to provide utility to quickly allow for your directions to be followed. You kept their morale up, coordinated their movements, marked shifts in tactics or to new stages of your strategy, and were rightly and uniquely valuable for that.

...That's the feeling I want back for Bard. It doesn't have to be a random trumpeter in the back of the field, nor does it have to go in and out of range shaking a tambourine beside its party members' ears. I just want to feel like I can actually provide something unique and befitting that sort of shot-caller or battle-adjuster niche.

[Kabooa]

...That's the feeling I want back for Bard. It doesn't have to be a random trumpeter in the back of the field, nor does it have to go in and out of range shaking a tambourine beside its party members' ears. I just want to feel like I can actually provide something unique and befitting that sort of shot-caller or battle-adjuster niche.

Battle Paint is a concept I want that not many games do.

Throw down stuff on the ground for bonuses, like an arrow that gives movement speed in the pointed direction, semi circle that reduces damage to those within the curve, all that fun stuff.

[Shurrikhan]

Battle Paint is a concept I want that not many games do.

Throw down stuff on the ground for bonuses, like an arrow that gives movement speed in the pointed direction, semi circle that reduces damage to those within the curve, all that fun stuff.

Heh, stuff I'd imagined for Wildling before. Idk how I feel about it on Bard, but I'd like to see something like that someday.

[Kalise]

...I much prefer a bow-wielding bard to any pure support.

The issue isn't with Bard having offensive capabilites, but rather that their core is about being a master marksman, as opposed to being a BARD.

Also note, that while most games offer a terrible implementation of Bard, often being pure support *Flashbacks to Rift's Bard, sitting in the middle of Raid Rifts... Just spamming buffs* it's not the ONLY interpretation.

For example, Everquest's Bard classes (Dirge and Troubador) are notably Rogues at their core. They use daggers and/or bows/throwing knives to stab/shoot enemies. But they also combine the essence of Barding. They have skills where they use their voice to attack for massive damage. They offer a selection of buffs for allies via songs as well as debuffs against enemies for other songs.

This allows them to have their entire kit be infused with Barding, having songs buff and debuff, using your voice to damage or CC enemies etc. Whilst also having a role as a damage dealer, with also standard attacks (Stabbing with a dagger for example)

Chakra manipulation is merely added atop the Pugilist skillset, the one into which it best fits. Blood of the Dragon and leaping over tall buildings is merely added to spearmanship, the proficiency into which it best fits. Big guy with axe, quite sensibly, gets the 'even bigger when angry' augmentation. Every job works in the way you're describing.

Monk, a predominantly fist based martial fighter, is added on top on Pugilist, a fist based martial fighter.

Dragoon, a spear wielding fighter, is added on top of Lancer, a spear wielding fighter.

Warrior, a job that has seen notable use with axes (But not exclusively), is added on top of Marauder an axe wielding class.

Black Mage, a stave wielding Black Magic caster, is added on top of Thaumaturge, a primarily stave wielding Black Magic caster.

Bard, a singing virtuoso, is added on top of Archer, an archery based class.

One of these things is not like the others.

Literally, the only thing that makes Bard and Archer work together is the notion that a Bow can be a harp because they both have strings. Which is not only not how that works (Bow strings are working to hold maximal force from either the bending of the limbs, wheras Harp (Along with all string instruments) are holding specific tensions so as to create particular notes when strummed), but also not actually used in the game with going so far as to PULL OUT A SMALL HARP OUT OF NOWHERE IN ORDER TO STRUM IT.

I haven't leveled a Bard to 50 since 1.x, back when the quest chain mostly took you through the dew-grassed rolling hills of Coerthas, but there at least it seemed to give a very logical interpretation of the job: you, as someone capable of learning how people act and react, of memorizing songs and generally getting your way through intelligence, awareness, and charisma, were a squad leader and shot-caller. As befitting someone in that position, you wielded a bow. It suited your nature and kept you at range to act as part of the squad, to direct it, and to provide utility to quickly allow for your directions to be followed. You kept their morale up, coordinated their movements, marked shifts in tactics or to new stages of your strategy, and were rightly and uniquely valuable for that.

Yeah, new Bard is none of that.

In ARR, you're not even in a squad. You're just sent around looking for songs by Jehantel, who only became a Bard because he lost his ability to be an Archer. Then you end up making him become an Archer again.

In HW, you're not the squad leader. Sanson the Gridanian guard is. You're not the one being charismatic, intelligent, memorizing or composing songs, Guydelot the actual Bard is.

You're there for one thing and one thing only. Because you're a master Archer. So you can fight with the guard to keep everyone safe while you look for the Ultimate Song (Supposedly a weapon, with intentions to use it for the Gridanian army. Oh, and some minor thing about showing how Bards can be more beneficial to a squad than a simple Archer, by shooting stuff with arrows...)

Or if you look at StB, you're again, just there to be a master Archer as well as a reknown adventurer who pushed back the Garlean forces, while you escort some bloke (Then get embroiled in secret terrorism and suppressed truths... Which have you fighting against an evil terrorist group. There might have been something about songs there? Or maybe that was just the actual Bard who went and played songs in the local taverns in order to coerce people into spilling their secrets...)

[Shurrikhan]

The issue isn't with Bard having offensive capabilites, but rather that their core is about being a master marksman, as opposed to being a BARD.

I don't disagree that the focus should be far more on the singing and less on the shooting. Hell, I'd be fine if ALL of the shooting Bard has was given by the Archer class prior to the split. My point is merely that I like that it has a bow because I like for my Bard to be armed and, since we're only allowed a single weapon type, I like that it uses the weapon that makes the most sense.

Also note, that while most games offer a terrible implementation of Bard, often being pure support *Flashbacks to Rift's Bard, sitting in the middle of Raid Rifts... Just spamming buffs* it's not the ONLY interpretation.

For example, Everquest's Bard classes (Dirge and Troubador) are notably Rogues at their core. They use daggers and/or bows/throwing knives to stab/shoot enemies.

But that leaves you with the same problem. What part of Rogue or dagger-wielding shouts Music? Is Music just an eclectic weapon set?

No matter what, music/bardery a broadly applicable skillset. It's logical placement, then, is not limited by what weapon allows you to sing while using it, but which weapon allows you to be least hampered in your singing or to maximize the benefit of that singing. It is limited only by where a person who provides such benefits probably ought to be to maximize the benefit of their songs. And standing back a bit with a shortbow makes a whole lot more sense for that toolkit than being smacked about on the frontlines. A bow as a Bard's weapon might not shout Music in itself, since no practical weapon does more than any other, but it does at reflect practicality on the whole.

Monk, a predominantly fist based martial fighter, is added on top on Pugilist, a fist based martial fighter.

Dragoon, a spear wielding fighter, is added on top of Lancer, a spear wielding fighter.

Warrior, a job that has seen notable use with axes (But not exclusively), is added on top of Marauder an axe wielding class.

Black Mage, a stave wielding Black Magic caster, is added on top of Thaumaturge, a primarily stave wielding Black Magic caster.

Bard, a singing virtuoso, is added on top of Archer, an archery based class.

One of these things is not like the others.

Consider the techniques as actual techniques instead of wrapping up what makes the job its job with the class it normally stands as, though.

Pugilist gets Chakra manipulation. Perfect, as its weapon type already demanded a knowledge of internal flow, momentum, etc., seen across Greased Lightning, Internal Release, and its stances.

Lancer gets Dragon Skills. Perfect, as a long, pointed weapon is ideal for getting maximal damage out of subconsciously manipulating one's weight or gravitational pull to leap to and descend from great or to very quickly close distances.

Thaumaturge unlocks wide invocation to source its evocations. Rather than channeling from just its own soul and immediate surroundings, it can now draw aether from wide expanses at will to fuel its fire and flame.

Archer, once a class laden with serious burst damage and disgusting amounts of utility, gets battle-turning abilities in the form of music, supplementing its original guerrilla warfare kit with something more sustaining (Army/Ballad), but also able to capitalize on that burst (Foe), instantly free up allies (Warden's), and to initiate healing (Minne). The original utility-heavy kit becomes more utility-heavy.

Ultimately it comes down to wanting either a practical-seeming progression or wanting to jump straight to jobs.

In the latter case, a Bard has literally no applicable weapons. It can kill monsters only, if at all, by seducing them or informing them that the song of their people is actually a far more peaceful one than they have in recent generations been led to believe.

Now, if we were to remove weapon proficiencies altogether, or allow separately for jobs' techniques and their being bound to a single weapon type, we'd have an altogether different story, but Bard itself -- that toolkit -- for all intents and purposes, would be more alike to a Disciple of the Land/Hand than a Disciple of War.

...And while searching the lands for various songs and lore is immensely appealing to me, short of that separation of class/weapon-proficiencies and jobs-as-thematic-technique-sets-technically-applicable-to-any-weapon... I'd rather have a Bard I can level and capable of solo combat without having to resort to attacking enemies with animated musical notes or cringe-opera.

[Kalise]

My point is merely that I like that it has a bow because I like for my Bard to be armed and, since we're only allowed a single weapon type, I like that it uses the weapon that makes the most sense.

Though, exactly how much sense does it make?

Given that in the same setting, we have a class/job that uses a BOOK in order to inflict plagues or summon an icon of a world shattering Dragon.

Where we have a job that DANCES to infuse allies with additional power.

That includes a job that makes hand gestures to create Fireballs, Lightning Strikes or summon Shuriken.

We even have a job that uses a purely theatrical rod but is capable of conjuring missiles, earthquakes, fireballs, laser beams, tsunami's, lightning strikes, ice bows, explosions etc.

At what point does a weapon make more sense for a Bard than an instrument? Given that literally, magic exists allowing for something innocuous like an actual harp or flute to be a bringer of destruction if it happened to channel aether in a relevant way.

Bard in of itself, can offer a number of ways of providing offense via magical words and songs. Be it in the form of incredibly depressing music that actually drains the life of your foes in much the opposite way your music can revitalize your allies. Or be it in the form of having mastery over your voice/music to be able to utilize deafening blasts of sound (Which would be akin to a Wind spell like Aero, given how sound can manipulate the air)

It doesn't inherently need a weapon in order to deal damage to things, especially in a setting where magic exists in abundance. One merely helps expand options. Though the main difference is a Bard doesn't need to necessarily rely upon weapons entirely for their combat, nor even for a majority of it.

But that leaves you with the same problem. What part of Rogue or dagger-wielding shouts Music? Is Music just an eclectic weapon set?

Rogues are often charismatic and adept at using misdirection and alternate fighting methods. As well as being notable for being able to coerce and persuade people using mere words.

Though, part of it could also relate back to how D&D Bards are Rogues, using shortswords/rapiers alongside their songs. Which they can enhance using magic via their songs.

However, the "Issue" is avoided because they're not primarily Rogues with Bard stuck on top, but Bards through and through. With attack rotations that include songs/shouts that deal damage or otherwise enhance their attacks.

Since the "Issue" is not "Does this weapon fit a Bard?" but merely, how much said "Bard" relies upon weapons as opposed to utilizing music or their voice (Either via shouts, magical words or chants) given that due to the versatility of Bardic magics, you can theoretically justify nearly every weapon for a Bard. It really just depends on what kind of ways the magics are utilized.

In XIV, most of how Bardic magic is used is via a passive effect, while you just shoot arrows at people. While for some reason, your songs allow you to shoot people with arrows more often (MB/AP) or shoot a aether infused arrow at people (WP). Meaning that you have all of 3 Bardic infused attacks, the arrow from WP, Iron Jaws (I think? It's hard to tell exactly what that attack is doing. I just know it isn't shooting an arrow at the target though) and Apex Arrow (Which uses Soul Voice gauge)