Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[RocciaSolida]

I play Dragoon and i literally get locked in place for .7 seconds on jumps and 1.2 seconds on Star Divers, You can cast at 25m which is radially most the majority of all the arena's and your summons have attack ranges of 100ms, I don't think you should be getting hit at all as DPS as general, but if you look into HPS on dps, SMN has on average the highest Highest HPS for NOT having to worry about using it as an extra ability, you don't need to go out of the way to provide good HPS, which i find odd and strange, for example in Ramuh due to timings, Summoners have double the HPS of Melee and Triple of Range jobs, It even beats Dancer in HPS in that fight due to how Phoenix is timed, I wouldn't exactly call 700 HPS without trying Glass cannon without utility, considering you guys also have self heals in emergency situations (when the boss jumps for example) It is strange because it's raid wide heals, and doesn't effect your weaves since its kitted into summoners rotation.

Some of it ends up being over-heals, but the time it counts you can get easily around 2k-4k+ heals to the group in 10 seconds.

Let's not lie to ourselves though because everyone knows that summoner is over-tuned and i wouldn't be surprised if they get toned down next patch.

It doesn’t matter that SMN has the highest HPS amongst the DPS, you can’t decide when to spend that healing potential because it’s tied directly to your Phoenix and you want to summon Phoenix under raid buffs following a very strict rotation cycle.
Also HPS doesn’t mean anything if not mentioned alongside overheal. Would you consider a WHM whose only GCDs casted during a fight are Medica II a good WHM?

[ReiMakoto]

No you have not,

You have not answered the questions I brought up and they are still unanswered. That said. Make no mistake here, I agree with Nemekh more often than not, this just happened to be the one time I do not and specifically because of those things I linked earlier. They are unanswered questions and remain so.

For the record here I even agree with Nemekh on the use of Titan.

Just in case you arn't being deliberatly dense, I'm going to reply to you one more time, because here are the answers to the questions you've brought up which definetly weren't unanswered by people in this thread.

1. Dungeons endgame and copied factory operate off of DPS on fflogs not RDPS or ADPS, this means that they are not being adjusted for raid buffs or personal padding in the slightest
2. People do not compete in any of the things you linked, lack of competetion leads to lack of optimisation which leads to skewed results where gear and non optimal rotation timing make a huge difference
3. Even though you do not aggree, 99% plus should be taken as the standard for measuring these things off of because they are where people are truley optimised, again especially where you linked
4. Lack of sample size, linked to point 2, because people do not compete in anything that you linked, the number of uploaded logs is significantly less than savage when it is in full swing especially for some of the endgame dungeons, lower sample size leads to innaccurate data

[Renkei]

Calling everlasting flight 'utility' by looking at HPS instead of whether it's actually healing anything important, is like saying dragoons have mad mobility cause of jumps, even though 90% of time you're already in melee range and just use them for damage. Would you hold dragonfire dive for a minute just to gap close, when you could've just walked? Nah, neither is a summoner going to shift phoenix around or care about the heal at all when the healer is going to do it anyway. This is a pretty flawed argument.

But now you give me an idea, maybe it's time to start taxing dragoons like a ranged cause they're obviously a pseudo-ranged with all this free mobility.

I never said you were going to adjust around this utility, i was saying that you don't have to go out of the way to benefit from it, Other jobs have to use Cool-downs to even get 500 HPS while SMN has it baked into their rotation, Yeah your argument is pretty flawed because you absolutely took it out of context, I clearly stated it's a bous that you do not have to go out of your way to get, neither does it requires you to do anything additional to get it, it's naturally apart of the SMN rotation.

It doesn’t matter that SMN has the highest HPS amongst the DPS, you can’t decide when to spend that healing potential because it’s tied directly to your Phoenix and you want to summon Phoenix under raid buffs following a very strict rotation cycle.
Also HPS doesn’t mean anything if not mentioned alongside overheal. Would you consider a WHM whose only GCDs casted during a fight are Medica II a good WHM?

My point is you do not have to go out of the way for it, when it works it works, and when it doesn't you didn't go out of your way for it so in times when it's needed that it lines up with raid burst it's a bonus.

I considered a healer that deals as much damage as possible while preventing as much over-heal as possible the WHMS, Using Regen when there is time to Regen without threat, and using Medica and Medica 2 at the proper times, but prioritizing using proper heal OGCDs to keep up time without risking anyone else's safety in the party.

I think it's important to note here that SMN doesn't need to go out of it's way to Achieve high HPS, it in no way effects their damage output, It's a Valid point to make because other DPS have to use OGCD's to obtain similar HPS.

[Myon88]

Yeah I'm not sure if you realize the fact that having no control over it is a downside, not a benefit to the skill. It just goes to show how you little you understand about its value as 'utility'.

The funny thing is, if you could control when you cast it, you would have a much stronger argument about it being something that summoner should be taxed for. If that was the case, they would actually be able to use it effectively in fights and sync it with mechanics. Instead, you pretty much just activate phoenix for dps, and leave it to chance whether you need the heal at that time (spoiler: you don't).

Does that sound nice to you? Hey, I'll swap it for bloodbath, deal? I mean, you don't actually think having to manually activate a skill like bloodbath is some kind of huge game changing difference right? Are rotations so taxing that a little bit of extra thought to press an ogcd feels like a huge source of stress? Don't be silly, it's one button. If that was the price you had to pay to get separate control over phoenix's heal, every summoner would pay it on the spot.

Don't get me started on how all the summoner skill consolidations like that in Shadowbringers actually make your life harder, not easier. Now when I saw the news back in 2019 I already thought it was a bad joke, but never in my wildest dreams did I imagine someone would try and spin it as an upside, haha.

[Satarn]

Just give RDM a trait that continuously heals any party member that's at 100% hp for 500 potency, since raw hps is a great utility apparently - casters balanced.

[Renkei]

Yeah I'm not sure if you realize the fact that having no control over it is a downside, not a benefit to the skill. It just goes to show how you little you understand about its value as 'utility'.

The funny thing is, if you could control when you cast it, you would have a much stronger argument about it being something that summoner should be taxed for. If that was the case, they would actually be able to use it effectively in fights and sync it with mechanics. Instead, you pretty much just activate phoenix for dps, and leave it to chance whether you need the heal at that time (spoiler: you don't).

Does that sound nice to you? Hey, I'll swap it for bloodbath, deal? I mean, you don't actually think having to manually activate a skill like bloodbath is some kind of huge game changing difference right? Are rotations so taxing that a little bit of extra thought to press an ogcd feels like a huge source of stress? Don't be silly, it's one button. If that was the price you had to pay to get separate control over phoenix's heal, every summoner would pay it on the spot.

Don't get me started on how all the summoner skill consolidations like that in Shadowbringers actually make your life harder, not easier. Now when I saw the news back in 2019 I already thought it was a bad joke, but never in my wildest dreams did I imagine someone would try and spin it as an upside, haha.

Because you clearly haven't been listening to my point. Actually It's Two Buttons, Because Job's have to use Blood-bath and Second wind just to output 500 HPS.

You DO NOT even have to time it and accounting for over-heals you are still outputting 800 eHPS, which is higher then any job that has reactive self healing among DPS.

I still find it funny that i have to explain it 3 different ways in order for it to make sense, In normal play without going out of your way for it, summoners are outputting this kind of HPS.

Sometimes these heals are game changing, but it's not like you would know anything about that because you have all your HPS built into your rotation with what you said earlier "The same Complexity as Dragoon."

I never even said anything about making it a separate button for summoner i was just explaining a fact of it providing crazy amounts of HPS.

I have explained when it works it works and when it doesn't it doesn't, Obviously a person cannot explain that with any less complexity yet you claim that i cannot understand that as a utility when you don't understand clearly the utility of NOT HAVING TO PRESS 2 BUTTONS TO GET FREE HEALS DURING THE ENTIRE FIGHT.

Circular Argumenst, Ad Hominem, Ad Populum, Red Herring, Straw Maning, base rating, applied Slippery slope and False equivalence. I am waiting to see what Logical Fallacy you land on next i don't see how you even get likes with this kettle logic.

[Vendalwind]

Renkei has a point here. To make it simple:

You cant regard the phoenix healing as a negative. Whether you control it or not, it is only a gain. And when it works, it works well and too the benefit of the whole party without any downsides or weaving required.

Lack of control over a positive feature is still positive. Sure its not worth making a big balancing point out of, but shouting its worthless is assinine

[dinnertime]

Renkei has a point here. To make it simple:

You cant regard the phoenix healing as a negative. Whether you control it or not, it is only a gain. And when it works, it works well and too the benefit of the whole party without any downsides or weaving required.

Lack of control over a positive feature is still positive. Sure its not worth making a big balancing point out of, but shouting its worthless is assinine

Like you said, it's not worth making a big balancing point about, so there is no point in even mentioning it. Pointless.
And again, like I've said in the past, healers are more than capable right now to top off the party on their own with the overabundance of healing skills they have. They definitely don't need the help of Everlasting Flight lol. It's just fluff at best. They could remove it for all I care. Red Mage can have something like it but as its own button.

Vercure is more useful as a DPS's healing skill because you can actually use it as intended. Not having control over a healing skill is technically a negative because...as it already means, you have no control over it when you need it. More than likely the effects apply when you don't need it, and it just ends up being a waste of healing.

[NaiXizi]

I think I will share the content of this post to the communication community of other Job enthusiasts, because there are many disputes, and they have already disputed SMN in version 5.1, which is very similar to this post.
In a word using them: Is the discussion about SMN strong? It's like discussing whether the sun is hot. (By: BLM enthusiasts)

[Silverquick]

Just in case you arn't being deliberatly dense, I'm going to reply to you one more time, because here are the answers to the questions you've brought up which definetly weren't unanswered by people in this thread.

1. Dungeons endgame and copied factory operate off of DPS on fflogs not RDPS or ADPS, this means that they are not being adjusted for raid buffs or personal padding in the slightest

As has already been explained to you at multiple points in this thread, Summoner RDPS and ADPS are not much different. Take a look. This was already pointed out earlier in the thread.

SMN is not a "buffer" job like DNC is. Its got ONE buff which is Devotion which is only a 5% damage bonus to all players and has a 3 minute CD on it which isn't much different than a lot of other Jobs.

2. People do not compete in any of the things you linked, lack of competetion leads to lack of optimisation which leads to skewed results where gear and non optimal rotation timing make a huge difference

That makes Zero sense.
All Samurai do not magically and mystically put out massive effort while all Summoners magically and mystically put out ZERO effort, just because its not Savage. Your point made no sense and does not explain this.

Because they are still peers performing under equal circumstance.

Ergo does not explain how in some the Summoner appears towards the bottom in some of these.
So Again says nothing.

3. Even though you do not aggree, 99% plus should be taken as the standard for measuring these things off of because they are where people are truley optimised, again especially where you linked

The reason for top 10% rather than top 1% is that the top 1% are where they get almost all crits/directs etc. Top 10% gives you the variance of normal hits vs Crits/Directs.
ie... normal damage variance rather than all crits per se.

4. Lack of sample size, linked to point 2, because people do not compete in anything that you linked, the number of uploaded logs is significantly less than savage when it is in full swing especially for some of the endgame dungeons, lower sample size leads to innaccurate data

Incorrect again, sample size is still large enough to get a good average. Especially in the Alliance Raids where its clearly a large sample size.

Now I'll even bring up another one that you did not,
"Well people in BIS gear don't play them anymore"... which I follow with... yes they actually did prior to the last raid sequence as those Savage Players HAD to have done these in order to get the old BIS which was Augmented Deepshadow. And they did not magically and mystically stop playing their perfect rotations and efficiency just because they weren't playing Savage yet.

Yet... the results in the Alliance Raids still place SMN in the middle of the pack. So there is no way in hell its got "high firepower".