Samurai Sword Pressure/Shoha Stacks

[Brandedblade]

Not gonna try and prove you wrong as its a waste.
Don't join in on a discussion on a job you have no knowledge about. Because if you did, you would know samurai has just as much to keep track of as the other melee's.

Whoa there....

[Shurrikhan]

Hard no. SAM needs something to actually keep track of. Jinpu and Shifu are literally nothing. Sens are nothing. Even Kenki itself is nothing since every single sen combo generates enough kenki for Kaiten. It's no more clunky than having to weave any other oGCD after midare, or tsubame.

If SAM just absolutely must receive such a change it should be no more than 1 extra stack. If the core of your complaint is simply, truely, honestly, "using shoha betwixt midares is clunky" and not "I want to be able to get double shoha into raid buffs always" than a single extra stack is more than enough.

Changing the maximum number of stacks has zero effect on the difficulty of tracking a skill that can only be used at max stacks and for which stack generation cannot be feasibly manipulated enough to make any difference.

That said, neither would changing the maximum number of stacks remove the conflict Shoha stacks have with Tsubame-Gaeshi.

They're both irrelevant.

Also using seigan is such a small gain you can not even touch it.

It's 94% of a positional. That's small only if you also consider using proper positionals on SAM, who has the highest positional cost of any melee outside of Bootshine/Leaden-Fist, small.

As for how much SAM has to keep track of, one need only turn the other job's attention to Tsubame-Gaeshi, which includes with its management concepts of Yukikaze Higans to advance 1 GCD, no-Yukikaze MKSSs to advance 1 GCD, Yaten-Enpi to delay a GCD, Yuki-Haga to delay 2 GCDs, and Gekko/Kasha-Haga to delay 3 GCDs, all of which must be tracked against downtime and any add DoT/cleaves.

[Shurrikhan]

It's a combination of instant use Tsubame and change to Hagakure that have caused most of Samurai issues, honestly. I'm not sure why Yoshi thought that Sam was too complicated to play before when removing Hagakure is what lead to the really strict rotations we have now with fillers and the like. Sam was actually easier when you could adapt. Lol.

I used to hate the change to Hagakure, but since it's buff it's actually made for an incredibly smooth and consistent curve to effort-to-percentile performance increase across the various manipulations it makes possible in the context of Tsubame-Gaeshi, thus still reaching its upper-level benefits, while also being more casual- and dungeon-friendly than ever. Removing it was devastating. 5 Kenki per Sen was a slap to the face. But 10 Kenki each? It's just punishing enough to be interesting without being overly restrictive.

On topic:
Since we're not merging, and will never have sufficient reason to merge, Meditate and Shoha's hotkeys, just...

1. Let Shoha be used whenever we want so we can enter Meditate with 0 stacks, albeit at reduced efficiency per stack prior to max stacks, e.g. 100/240/400 potency across 1/2/3 stacks so we're not spamming it constantly (lose 22 to 33 potency for using it early).

   Issue: The aforementioned spam and worrying about syncing future Shoha uses to raid buffs, though that's really just skill-ceiling that those who can handle will want and those who cannot, wont.

2. [Simpler and smoother] Increase Shoha damage to 500 potency and have Tsubame-Gaeshi give no Shoha stacks. TG gives about 20% of our total Shoha stack generation. Removing it (5-->4) would therefore have to be compensated for by a 25% increase (4-->5) to Shoha potency.

   Issue: A greater percentage of Shoha uses may fall outside of raid buffs, and we're already outperformed by Summoner, largely due to how much better their burst damage can be realigned to damage windows.

3. [Most gimmicky, but causing the fewest changes] If Shoha stacks are already capped, have TG have the next Shoha refund a Shoha stack instead of granting a Shoha stack instantly.

   Issue: Reduced low-ping hegemony?

[xxvaynxx]

Changing the maximum number of stacks has zero effect on the difficulty of tracking a skill that can only be used at max stacks and for which stack generation cannot be feasibly manipulated enough to make any difference.

That said, neither would changing the maximum number of stacks remove the conflict Shoha stacks have with Tsubame-Gaeshi.

They're both irrelevant.



It's 94% of a positional. That's small only if you also consider using proper positionals on SAM, who has the highest positional cost of any melee outside of Bootshine/Leaden-Fist, small.

As for how much SAM has to keep track of, one need only turn the other job's attention to Tsubame-Gaeshi, which includes with its management concepts of Yukikaze Higans to advance 1 GCD, no-Yukikaze MKSSs to advance 1 GCD, Yaten-Enpi to delay a GCD, Yuki-Haga to delay 2 GCDs, and Gekko/Kasha-Haga to delay 3 GCDs, all of which must be tracked against downtime and any add DoT/cleaves.

Wait...what are you talking about? Seigan is the counter attack and has no postional. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying or you misunderstood what I said.

Its a VERY SMALL gain in your dps. I'm not saying not to ever use it as you should for predicable AOE's but don't clip your GCD's or go outta your way to use it as it won't boost your dps THAT much. Like it'll add up but don't expect to see huge numbers for it. If I look at my old logs I can see seigan while almost getting all the possible aoe's with third eye in levi.

My 14 seigans did 210.9 Dps
compared to my 10 higanbana that did 302.0 and this is the initial hit, not the dot tick. Granted it is getting buffed by kaiten but still, 14 Seigans don't even equal to the damage of 10 initial hit bana's.
So again, use this attack for predictable aoe's but don't go outta your way to try and third eye and clipping which can happen in a certain part of your rotation if you're trying to min n' max and get every seigan.

[Shurrikhan]

Wait...what are you talking about? Seigan is the counter attack and has no postional.

A positional is worth 64 potency. A Seigan is worth 60 potency per use, 93.75% of a positional. If you wouldn't ignore a positional, why would you ignore a Seigan, either? Neither costs you anything to use except in very few, very particular situations in very few, very particular fights. That is all. I in no way said Seigan required that SAM be appropriately positioned. There is no such thing as a 94% of a flank or rear...

[xxvaynxx]

A positional is worth 64 potency. A Seigan is worth 60 potency per use, 93.75% of a positional. If you wouldn't ignore a positional, why would you ignore a Seigan, either? Neither costs you anything to use except in very few, very particular situations in very few, very particular fights. That is all. I in no way said Seigan required that SAM be appropriately positioned. There is no such thing as a 94% of a flank or rear...

Yeah though the difference is that you can only proc it on hit. Which in seigan case every Aoe and in some cases you're deep in your rotation, usually in your burst phase, you have no time to press third eye unless you wanna clip for a small gain in dps that won't boost your numbers that much.
I get what you're saying now but you're overestimating and like I said, do it if you know an aoe is coming up but you can safety ignore the skill. I been playing samurai for a very long time, I'm not perfect but I parsed and tried to min n' max enough fights to know that it won't help that much.
Some of my highest parses beat my other parses with less seigans where I did only like 2 of them compared to one where I did 9 of them.

Heck if you look at the highest parses for sam for the current fights like ramuh, some of the top sams only use it once or twice to the current top sam doing like 6.

[MajisTek]

They should make our Seigan proc meditate stacks! yeah!

[Shurrikhan]

They should make our Seigan proc meditate stacks! yeah!

I mean, that'd be an additional 320-384 potency per minute for... what, exactly?

We're a bit behind right now, but is that really where we want to make the difference?

[Lersayil]

I agree with the others, Shoha is just the symptom, Tsubame Gaeshi is the culprit. I would prefer adjustments to Tsubame over Shoha. If they want to stick to their guns, maybe a single extra Shoha charge, just to avoid that one Shoha between Midare and Tsubame.

[Eliadil]

I agree with the others, Shoha is just the symptom, Tsubame Gaeshi is the culprit. I would prefer adjustments to Tsubame over Shoha. If they want to stick to their guns, maybe a single extra Shoha charge, just to avoid that one Shoha between Midare and Tsubame.

I mean, they already touched Shoha enough, I think that any more tinkering with the skill will not change the main issue anyway. I'm against the idea of an extra stack since this would be completely different from the mentality they have about overcapping ressource. With Bard you cannot stack Bloodletter procs so you have to use it on cooldown. Machinist don't have an extra 20 to their gauge to prevent overcapping... Every class demands that you prevent overcapping by using the ability, not by giving you some extra gauge to avoid overcapping.
In fact, the current design makes samurai quite akward when it comes to this, looking at how we have to completely twist our basic rotation to use Tsubame on cooldown. The flaw in the design lies within Tsubame from the beginning.