Revelations from Patch 5.2

[Vyrerus]

I just focused too much on the MRE part I guess heh, my bad!

[Alleo]

So, about the WoL's nature and 5.2:

I get that seeing a star shower-esque thing is supposed to act as a power trigger for those with ancient soul fragments and it makes them able to hear Hydaelyn. But I've rewatched the opening scene of ARR multiple times to be sure and we hear Hydaelyn's voice in our "dream" without a star shower having occurred. We don't see a star shower til we get our first crystal (and then we immediately see Hydaelyn herself). So... that's interesting?

About your points

Well we also have to remember that this was Elidibus doing. I am not sure if we can trust him on anything. Urianger even states that he lies if it further his goals. Honestly I am not even sure if that was Hydealyns voice at all. It sounded so far away so strange. I wonder if maybe some people are just born with active echos? Seemingly Zenos has dreamed about a destroyed world for a long time, maybe we too already had the echo for quite a bit.

Hydealyn only talking to us directly after getting our first crystal makes imo more sense than her just somehow turning people into WoLs if they get the echo. We had to prove that we are able to be WoLs by getting a crystal (just like Ardbert and his friends) so I doubt that those people are all just WoLs.

Regarding Elidibus's plans:

Am I the only one who thinks its possible Elidibus' gambit is going to work? Just, story-wise, it makes sense for him to have some kind of victory leading into 6.0. And it'd be weird for the plot to end up being "Lohgriff attempted a flood of light; it was thwarted by Minfilia. Emet-selch attempted a flood of light; it was thwarted by WoL. Elidibus attempted a flood of light; it was thwarted by WoL." Like, either succeed this time or stop proving the definition of insanity.

The problem with that is that a flood of light would destroy everything we have worked for. And would make no sense gameplay wise because we do need to be able to visit the first. I also believe that it would be way too dark for this story. Everyone we have known, every beast tribe we have helped, all the stuff with Eden or Nier would be gone. And Elidibus also needs a desaster on the source first otherwise a rejoining wont happen.

What should realistically happen on the source that will be calamity level? Black rose is something Zenos does not want to use, normal war wont bring a calamity of light. So I doubt that his plan will work.

I think that us being more active and going to them will stop it. Or maybe (since he does not like us) he underestimated the new "WoLs" believing them to betray us..

[WrenElessedil]

Well we also have to remember that this was Elidibus doing. I am not sure if we can trust him on anything. Urianger even states that he lies if it further his goals. Honestly I am not even sure if that was Hydealyns voice at all. It sounded so far away so strange. I wonder if maybe some people are just born with active echos? Seemingly Zenos has dreamed about a destroyed world for a long time, maybe we too already had the echo for quite a bit.

Hydealyn only talking to us directly after getting our first crystal makes imo more sense than her just somehow turning people into WoLs if they get the echo. We had to prove that we are able to be WoLs by getting a crystal (just like Ardbert and his friends) so I doubt that those people are all just WoLs.

Zenos's Dreams

I think Zenos is just a special case here due to being Emet-Selch's grandson.

[Mahoukenshi]

Random thoughts after I actually managed to catch up to the MSQ.
Elidbus' plans:

Based on main-ShB's epilogue Elidibus intends to play another round of WoL vs WoD just with swapped roles due to the First's setting. So if he's to succeed in ,keeping the WoL/D in the First (as long as possible) -- be it to plot catastrophies in the Source or for whatever -- he would need to actually "create"/train strong enough WoLs in addition to himself as unless the current citizens receive a cheat boost to lvl 80 with BiS gear . So if he participated directly in whatever skirmishes there'd be, I can see how he could manipulate the "pleb"-WoLs for a rather continous stallment. Especially if we, the WoLD were likely to hold back to not hurt the pleb-WoLs. IIRC, the flood of light occured after Ardbert and co defeated the Dark Dude so a roughly equality in power would need to be given. But anyway, succeeding at Flood of Light v2? Eh... I wouldn't personally like such a development.

As for Stalker Dude/Zenos.

Dunno what to expect of that scene. It seemed to be Amaurot's Final Days. Mr. White Cape who sounds suspiscously/unfortunately like Creepinator Asahi and his tale, I'm also unsure how that plays into another battle with our "friend and foe". Maybe blowing more power into his behind by giving him Creation magic? Or maybe setting the idea in Zeno's head to re-create this point in time for the Source as a fitting stage for the re-re-re-rematch.

[foussi]

About Elidibus plan

I dunno why but I don't think he wants to trigger a flood of light, rather he wants to destabilize crystarium from what it looks like, he might also try to incite all the wannabe-WOLs against us delaying the scions return to the source.

[Alleluia]

About your points

Well we also have to remember that this was Elidibus doing. I am not sure if we can trust him on anything. Urianger even states that he lies if it further his goals. Honestly I am not even sure if that was Hydealyns voice at all. It sounded so far away so strange. I wonder if maybe some people are just born with active echos? Seemingly Zenos has dreamed about a destroyed world for a long time, maybe we too already had the echo for quite a bit.

Hydealyn only talking to us directly after getting our first crystal makes imo more sense than her just somehow turning people into WoLs if they get the echo. We had to prove that we are able to be WoLs by getting a crystal (just like Ardbert and his friends) so I doubt that those people are all just WoLs.

I don't disagree that the Hydaelyn call that people heard in the Crystarium could have been fabricated. I don't know if it was or wasn't. Either is likely to me.

But I do buy that a star shower triggers the echo of ancient power present in those with ancient souls. Mainly b/c the concept that trauma could run so deep it left an imprint on the soul across lifetimes was also a conclusion Y'shtola's story step was coming to on her own with the whole thing in Rak'tikka, before Elidibus even touched on it.

And I believe the claim that having that echo activated is what allows one to hear Hydaelyn, among other things. This is b/c of its ability to allow us to hear and understand all sorts of languages, see the unseen, experience others' experiences, etc. The idea that the echo is what allows us to hear Hydaelyn is right in line with its proven abilities.

My point was just that, given the above, its both odd and interesting that we start off hearing her and having a vision foretelling future events before we've ever seen a star shower.

Its possibly just a bit more proof that we're an oddity even among oddities. This might be proof we're Venat, for example, with the whole "I shall have control over what form I take" line. We hear Hydaelyn without a star shower b/c we're technically incarnations of the soul that is her heart. Maybe similar to Elidibus' current situation. Or something.

Or the Venat thing is a red herring and we're the 14th convocate like many of us think, and the specialness results from their neutral stance/whatever plan they pulled off post-Final Days.

Or maybe its just a matter of "Its a retcon, don't think too hard about it." lol

About Elidibus plan

I dunno why but I don't think he wants to trigger a flood of light, rather he wants to destabilize crystarium from what it looks like, he might also try to incite all the wannabe-WOLs against us delaying the scions return to the source.

Yeah, that's where my mind has gone since that post. It doesn't necessarily have to be a flood of light. Another flood of light that doesn't succeed is too repetitive. But Elidibus succeeding at whatever it is he's going for... that still seems like it'd make the most sense to me. And not necessarily wholesale succeeding, either, but at least claiming a real victory.

Like, maybe he'll claim (part of?) whatever shard of Zodiark's power is present in the First, even if he doesn't claim the entirety of the planet's aether, yet. So Zodiark gets closer to being whole, even if the world doesn't. Or something else equally significant.

Random, but more thoughts on where I think the story is going, specifically the scions, b/c hey its patch night and I'm bored:

I am of the opinion that Thancred should stay on the First. And more importantly, he should *want* to stay on the First, given the whole character arc he's had of becoming Ryne's father figure and what that means for him and how it contrasts him not being there for Minfilia as much as he wanted. But up till now he's been acting like he's leaving. Now, I assume that's not out of a *desire* to leave her, but b/c there is no foreseeable way for him to stay. So, he's just prepping her as much as he can. BUT I think ultimately he's gonna end up staying on the first, unexpectedly. He's the oldest transplant and he's the one losing his connection to the Source the fastest. I think he'll live, but it'll be via means that can't be used more than once. And he's going to end up being a close call/case study to up the stakes in the Scions getting home *now* instead of later.

But Thancred is definitely staying, or Ryne is learning how to travel btwn dimensions. Leaving her alone except for occasional visits from her crazy WoD aunt/uncle--that could, in theory, be years apart due to shard time differentials--is not ok. Even if she does end up having Gaia with her.

[MrThinker]

Random, but more thoughts on where I think the story is going, specifically the scions, b/c hey its patch night and I'm bored:

I am of the opinion that Thancred should stay on the First. And more importantly, he should *want* to stay on the First, given the whole character arc he's had of becoming Ryne's father figure and what that means for him and how it contrasts him not being there for Minfilia as much as he wanted. But up till now he's been acting like he's leaving. Now, I assume that's not out of a *desire* to leave her, but b/c there is no foreseeable way for him to stay. So, he's just prepping her as much as he can. BUT I think ultimately he's gonna end up staying on the first, unexpectedly. He's the oldest transplant and he's the one losing his connection to the Source the fastest. I think he'll live, but it'll be via means that can't be used more than once. And he's going to end up being a close call/case study to up the stakes in the Scions getting home *now* instead of later.

But Thancred is definitely staying, or Ryne is learning how to travel btwn dimensions. Leaving her alone except for occasional visits from her crazy WoD aunt/uncle--that could, in theory, be years apart due to shard time differentials--is not ok. Even if she does end up having Gaia with her.

Well, we don't know what the consequences of Thancred staying on the First w/o his actual body might be. Remember he is technically a corporeal spirit atm, and if that stint at the Source lake before we meet Bismarck again is anything to go buy, the fading connection between the Scions souls and bodies could be very dire indeed.

However I am all for Ryne travelling between dimensions.

[Jandor]

Well, we don't know what the consequences of Thancred staying on the First w/o his actual body might be.

We might go and fetch his body for him? We can move "stuff" between worlds easy enough, just not people. I guess a body with no one home might count as stuff.

Last resort sort of thing if he worsens further, because without a body on the source he'd presumably be forever stuck on the first.

[LineageRazor]

We might go and fetch his body for him? We can move "stuff" between worlds easy enough, just not people. I guess a body with no one home might count as stuff.

Last resort sort of thing if he worsens further, because without a body on the source he'd presumably be forever stuck on the first.

The implication that I've been getting is that, while separated, body, mind, and soul are still dependent on one another. If any die, they all die. That's the urgency in returning to the Source - the parts have been separated for too long, and if the body dies, the mind and soul will disperse into the Lifestream. If that's true, the demise of his body won't just mean Thancred is stuck on the first - it means he'll die there, too.

Of course, an alternative to Ryne moving to the first would be Thancred (body, soul, and mind reunited) returning to the First. The WoL travels back and forth as a matter of course, now, so it's likely the Exarch has perfected the process - for the WoL, anyway. Even so, that would presumably be a big step toward figuring out how to send others, as well.

[JeanneOrnitier]

I also want Thancred to stay, and I want him to want to stay, but (Eden spoilers)

Urianger and Thancred's scene at the end definitely read like "they won't be in the First anymore when Eden returns in 5.4 so we need to write them out of it now."