Ranged DPS, choose a weakness that would justify a buff

[Lastelli]

No job is required to not move for more than 4 seconds, not even Ninja, and you are trying to lock the job in place for 8 seconds. Sadly, this is a really bad design especially when MCH needs more lag recognition. Same for BRD and the requiem.
If those changes would actually happen, ranged would need to be much higher than a BLM as a BLM is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more mobile than your ideas.

And this is why I can't take you "make ranged great again" crowd seriously. Hypercharge is active for approximately 20% of an encounter and this alone should make you realize how big the difference is between this hypothetical version of MCH and the current BLM in terms of freedom of movement (unless you want to argue that blm is cast-free 80% of the time). Furthermore, it can be used flexibly outside of wildfire windows. The longest you'd have to stay still is 7.5 seconds, which is more or less equal to 3 hardcasted fire 4. If you know a mechanic will force you to move, you'll delay it, as the current nature of MCH allows that. In fact, I'm already doing it most of the times for some reasons I'm not going to explain here. If you think that my proposed solution is too unforgiving and the punishment for moving while using HC is too severe, numbers can be lowered a little so that if you screw up you don't lose too much damage, though I personally like the idea of MCH as a high-risk, high-reward job. By the way, these are rough suggestions that can be easily adapted to make them easier to execute in practice. For instance, in the case of HC, lack of movement can be changed with a "grace area" with a radius of 2y, like a small ley lines, and if you stand there your heat blasts do more damage.

The yalm requirement was made especially forgiving so that it would be easy to achieve without having to place a ruler on your monitor. Just know that max range is 25y, so 10y is less than half of that, and small enough to be able to receive all aoe heals in the game, with the only exeption of cure iii...in which case, again, you'd just have to pay a very small price, go stack with the party, and then go back to the required range. What I suggested is absolutely doable in a savage/ultimate scenario with some planning. All of it. The only possible problem I see is, in fact, with foe requiem, because the game's net code sucks, but even if it took 2 seconds for the debuff to be reapplied it wouldn't be a big deal.

To conclude, do note when these requirements are not satisfied, the job would still be doing damage. These changes would just give something more for those that want to work for them, unlike a BLM or a RDM that has to cancel a cast to avoid a mechanic or a melee that needs to disengage. For them, damage is zero in those cases.

[Akiudo]

snip

at least your bard idea would in fact make bard way less mobile than even blackmage (if going for optimized damage), while at the same time forcing bard so far away it will basically never again see an aoe heal, yes you put up the whole "just quick ideas" disclaimer, but reading about the one class i actively do play i get the feeling your experience on bard boils down to "i like mch"

[Lastelli]

at least your bard idea would in fact make bard way less mobile than even blackmage (if going for optimized damage), while at the same time forcing bard so far away it will basically never again see an aoe heal, yes you put up the whole "just quick ideas" disclaimer, but reading about the one class i actively do play i get the feeling your experience on bard boils down to "i like mch"

I have a pretty decent understanding about how brd works, though I don't normally play it as I find it way too dull, especially in the current iteration. Not that MCH is much harder, but at least the slightly higher APM keeps me more entertained.

Anyway, again, you guys should really stop the hyperbolic statements, it doesn't make your argument more convincing.
As I already said, 10y is a relatively small range (the diameter of art of war). At 10-15y you will still receive most AoE heals. If your WHM needs to use cure 3, stack with the party, get healed and move away again. You'd lose a ridiculously small amount of damage by doing so, as you would simply have a slightly lower proc rate for repertoire skills. Actually, depending on luck, it might even make no difference at all when you're forced close to the boss. A similar consideration is valid for foe requiem: you'd have to give up a few seconds of debuff if you're forced to move, which would amount to a very small amount of damage. Consider that currently trick attack provides around 1.5k rdps. Requiem was weaker than that, so that would amount to less than 500 rdps. Even if you were forced to move for a few seconds during foe requiem, you'd lose like 100-200 rdps at most.

Now, if you tell me that you don't like a gameplay that forces you not to move to squeeze that extra 500 dps I can understand that. Just don't tell me that these changes would make ranged dps less mobile than BLM. I can't really take you seriously if you do.
I was also thinking about giving ranged jobs some positional requirements instead of restricting their movements, but thinking about how that would work out in a savage setting, I honesly think that that would be either too easy (with rear/sides positionals only) or too hard (if a front positional is included) because of how fights are designed.

To be honest, I'm just starting to believe that some ranged dps were simply too comfortable with the op status they enjoyed in the past (especially BRD) and can't accept their new position as normal jobs. Thankfully, most ranged dps are perfectly fine with the current situation.

[Akiudo]

I have a pretty decent understanding about how brd works

okay, just to humor you and your pretty decent understanding of bard.

1. reportoire proccs=soul voice stack, you will NEVER want to miss extra procc chances no matter the song or whatever, your "pretty decent understanding" of bard ends with the fact that double proccs=double the soul voice, even during mages ballad or when allready at 4 stacks during wanderers.

ignoring that (lets just call it a small oversight and chuckle to ourselves)
.
2. proccs are on server ticks at 3 second intervalls, you will allways miss 1, however more likely 2 ticks of your proposed reportoire buff if you so much as move 2 steps out of any aoe, at any time, no matter what. not even blackmage is that restricted (even if we assume perfect play down to every cooldown 2 xenoglossy+triplecast still leaves more than 10 seconds of free movement every 80 seconds, thats not even throwing in a swiftcast or having a thundercloud procc simply line up conveniently)

3. the notion that there are "enough" proccs during mage ballad anyways is just stupid, unless you somehow reach 100% procc rate it is not "enough" if its possible to raise it.

4. you would still only want to be in wanderers 20 seconds if playing optimally, arguing one could stay in it longer would at best be akin to "blackmage can use xenoglossy at suboptimal buff timing" or things like that so don't even go there. with that being said even with all your great extra proccs theres no guarantee you will get 2 double proccs in a row or even 3 proccs+EA lining up early, lets be optimistic and say you will average out 4 proccs at 7~ seconds or so leaving you with 13 seconds of "free" movement, add to that you wouldn't want to move 3 seconds before switching so your great new procc mechanic is active when switching and you end up with 10~ seconds out of 80 of free movement. Your theoretical bard has less "free" movement time than blackmage even ignoring your complete misunderstanding how soul voice works.

5. while not as big you can at least a little bit adjust your positioning slowly by slidecasting which wouldn't be possible at all on your proposed bard, even ignoring that, say you sit directly next to the server so absolutely no slidecasting for you, if you know you need to stack in say 15 seconds and before that nothing happens that forces the group apart you got all of that 15 second window to get to the stack, you don't need an instant NOW, you need it during that 15 second window in such a case, as your theoretical proposed bard you've got no such luck.

oh and yea, at 10y range most things outside of medica 2 will most likely miss you, your position would literally have to be fixed at "directly 10 yalms behind the boss" or no way in hell you will get a 15y radius heal the healer starts from anywhere optimized to hit every melee+the tank, best case it gets decided your tank doesn't need the aoe and your heal can pull some "oh, i will just stay a little behind everyone else in the group" move,lets just hope no melee is trying to hit a positional right now or the caster is still 2 steps away from the group to the right as theres no need to exactly stack and this way works out better as pre positioning for the next mechanic. btw again "moving in" would with your bard suggestions ALLWAYS be a loss, no class, literally no class is in a position where movement is a loss no matter the circumstances, so yea, come again with your great understanding of bard.

You literally proposed turning bard into a less mobile version of blackmage (if wanting to play optimally) that on top of it all would have to do some weird positioning that that very same blackmage wouldn't have to do and in exchange suggested it should "only" be 3% or so behind.

[CKNovel]

To be honest, I'm just starting to believe that some ranged dps were simply too comfortable with the op status they enjoyed in the past (especially BRD) and can't accept their new position as normal jobs. Thankfully, most ranged dps are perfectly fine with the current situation.

Honestly, MCH wise because I didn't played BRD back then, HW MCH is considered the best MCH iteration by many and not damage wise. Others considers the SB MCH better if it had Flamethrower QoL.
It had multiple layers of complexity compared to what we have now. You probably knows how it works but for reminder:

Casting was influenced by multiple stance&tools, ammos would make the GCDs instant-cast, rapidfire would make the GCDs instant cast and set the GCDs cooldown at 1.5s.
You could also remove Gauss barrel to completely remove casts, trading damages for mobility.
It was multiple little things that made a MCH good. If you played like a caster, you would do normal damages but if you pushed the gimmicks to the fullest, it was a real reward, little but it was a reward.

These castings gimmicks were good. The SB iteration removed casting while keeping old CDs such as Rapidfire, the Ammos and Gauss Barrel which is why SB MCH had a mixed reception.
Now if you ask me to remind immobile for the whole Hypercharge duration, of course I'm going to be pissed if I can't deal 130% of the BLM DPS, able to slidecast, Aether manipulation and the leylines not locking the job in place. For myself, I just want double ranged to not be locked out of PF, I'm not fine with that.

If most ranged were perfectly fine, there wouldn't be these threads and they would die out instantly but they attract people, the debate still lives. It was already said, if mobility was so much of a component, why ranged dps were lower than anyone else on the very first week?
Wether you like it or not, ranged DPS were stripped of damages and utility and many wants to get something back, that's a fact. Tactician/Samba/Troubadour is not enough.

[Vendalwind]

And this is why I can't take you "make ranged great again" crowd seriously...

this.

SOOOO much this. I mena you start a thread where you specifically ask for WEAKNESSES and then your like 'Nah that weakness sucks'
Until 5.1 NIN was stuck in TCJ for 6 seconds on average. ping dependent. And yeah. as Lastelli said no single move of BLM requires 7 seconds. But a chain of moves does. and BLM need to chain such moves without moving for max potential output. The suggested MCH change would work much the same.

Also Yalms are actually pretty easy to gauge, and like any other skill its a practice and learning thing. Thats one you could easily test out with a striking dummy too. if you wanted to make it simpler you could make a rule about only getting the damage bonus outside of melee range, but i feel like that would be too easy

That said as Kabooa noted we need to reward ranged for something special for their class more than anything else, and movement restrictions really probably aren't the best way.
I really do think that range restrictions are, or at the very least like discussed bonuses, are the best choice.

Melee are generally rewarded for positional s. Do you need to do positional s? no. So on occasion you give them up for mechanics. Melee also need to stay in range. Do we always get to? no, and every time we are forced out we have to adapt and change our rotations and alignments.
Casters are supposed to not move. Do they always get to? Absolutely not haha. They have some utility type skills to mitigate the losses of doing so, but they are still losses regardless
Ranged could be very easily be given restrictions within the boss hitbox as a downside (can't use certain moves while standing in the bosses circle) standard dmg outside of the circle, and for being 5 yalms+ away a bonus to damage on their basic moves. This would increase the skill gap, and could easily be designed to be a bigger buff than a nerf to the classes.

I do gotta say tho, that going further for class specific boosts sounds nicer and more doable. MCH for example definately can validate non movement or other restrictions with the need to actually , ya know, build machines. but the general range restriction/bonus would be the most simple and well devised thing i can think of.

[Akiudo]

snip

to be fair, while i've got no clue about mch from all i've seen in the forums and on reddit a lot of nins felt quite unhappy with TCJ and 6 seconds of being rooted, so its not like its some great beloved thing others dealt with with pleasure its just the silly physical ranged complaining. Also generalisations are bad, and at least his bard idea really is terrible, like yea its fine to bring forth ideas even if its just in a general "for example, xyz could be done" way but one has to be open to criticism on that aswell than.

[CKNovel]

this.

Snip

I indeed asked for a weakness, not for a throwback.
We have so much years of different gameplay; Flamethrower from SB and TCJ, despised job mechanics and the "Weakness" is to add more of that.
It's like asking for more Anatman to nerf MNK and expecting a smile.

As for positionnals, reminder that hitting the front of the boss is not as much of a loss and doesn't involve mechanics.
And on top of that, the idea is build in the context of a Ranged alone, no in 8 man teams which will create conflicts between Melee uptime and "Ranged Uptime" strategies.

As I said the idea is good but it cannot work in FF XIV.
Also on the opposite I proposed oGCDs/GCDs to be melee ranged and that wasn't took in account, the answer was directly "And this is why I can't take you[...]".
It's meant to be an exchange, it's criticisim. Every idea is bad until it is polished.