Ranged DPS, choose a weakness that would justify a buff

[Lastelli]

at least your bard idea would in fact make bard way less mobile than even blackmage (if going for optimized damage), while at the same time forcing bard so far away it will basically never again see an aoe heal, yes you put up the whole "just quick ideas" disclaimer, but reading about the one class i actively do play i get the feeling your experience on bard boils down to "i like mch"

I have a pretty decent understanding about how brd works, though I don't normally play it as I find it way too dull, especially in the current iteration. Not that MCH is much harder, but at least the slightly higher APM keeps me more entertained.

Anyway, again, you guys should really stop the hyperbolic statements, it doesn't make your argument more convincing.
As I already said, 10y is a relatively small range (the diameter of art of war). At 10-15y you will still receive most AoE heals. If your WHM needs to use cure 3, stack with the party, get healed and move away again. You'd lose a ridiculously small amount of damage by doing so, as you would simply have a slightly lower proc rate for repertoire skills. Actually, depending on luck, it might even make no difference at all when you're forced close to the boss. A similar consideration is valid for foe requiem: you'd have to give up a few seconds of debuff if you're forced to move, which would amount to a very small amount of damage. Consider that currently trick attack provides around 1.5k rdps. Requiem was weaker than that, so that would amount to less than 500 rdps. Even if you were forced to move for a few seconds during foe requiem, you'd lose like 100-200 rdps at most.

Now, if you tell me that you don't like a gameplay that forces you not to move to squeeze that extra 500 dps I can understand that. Just don't tell me that these changes would make ranged dps less mobile than BLM. I can't really take you seriously if you do.
I was also thinking about giving ranged jobs some positional requirements instead of restricting their movements, but thinking about how that would work out in a savage setting, I honesly think that that would be either too easy (with rear/sides positionals only) or too hard (if a front positional is included) because of how fights are designed.

To be honest, I'm just starting to believe that some ranged dps were simply too comfortable with the op status they enjoyed in the past (especially BRD) and can't accept their new position as normal jobs. Thankfully, most ranged dps are perfectly fine with the current situation.

[Vulcann]

i'm ok with the low damage IF they gave us (mch, bard, dancer) STRONG utility.

Dancer - Strong single target buffs

Bard - Strong group buffs and maybe a rez

Machinist - Strong long cooldown debuffs

[Shurrikhan]

I don't necessarily agree the constraint has to be the removal of using mobility. If anything, the use of the mobility should be encouraged.

Think of it this way.

A Caster is -rewarded- for doing better. In terms of being a Caster, this generally boils down to minimizing movement during the best uptime phases, and abusing what they can during very long movement phases. That's their unique goal.

Ranged are currently not. If we consider the idea that they are currently lacking their ability to push farther due to a lack of real constraints, then our aim shouldn't be to uplift them and then shackle them, it should be to uplift them by them taking advantage of having no shackles.

We create a unique goal for them that utilizes their kit advantages, that by its nature extends their skillcap in each encounter.

Perfect mobility removes a skill-gap component, one which interacts well with fight designs. We can call it "restricting" mobility all we want, but without it there is no "optimizing mobility" unless fights are designed to require the most possible use of that perfect mobility, which would depend on either a far less mobile counterpart whose duties can somehow be absorbed atop one's own (would require very different designs) or optional but useful duties which only a hypermobile person could perform without significant uptime loss (again, requiring very different designs).

What, though, do we do with fights that don't have these newly obligatory mechanics/designs? Where does that gap in skill, and thereby perhaps deservedly performance, go?

Ultimately, why not have a much lighter form of mobility costs that casters face, such as was provided by Feint vs. Heavy Shot during the Bow Mage days? Then we can have greater parity regardless of the fight. Where the fight does not make use of hypermobility, Ranged aren't punished for having it. Where it does, Ranged reach parity in a more unique way.

[Shurrikhan]

Air Anchor
Weaponskill
Recast: 40
Fires heavy chains at the target.
Point Blank [0-5]: 700 potency and 20 Battery.
Mid Range [6-15]: 930 Potency and 10 Battery.
Long Range [16-Max]: [X] Hits of [Y] Potency. (Totals 1160)

Every 10 Battery is worth 230 Potency (1 Robot Attack of 150+ 80 to the final hit). This effectively makes the ability equal at all ranges, however, as you might notice, they suddenly have very clear cases of extra gain.

A 930 Hit is a better Reassemble target than Drill. A multiple hit weaponskill is a better GCD to fit into Wildfire. The robot is never bad, and this doesn't change Machinists's default.

This is the same idea of priority conflict I've suggested in the Monk for Chakra and Greased Lightning. Air Anchor's value fluctuates (and where you need to use it from flucutates) based on the status of your other cooldowns.

How does that sound?

Sounds great as a design direction.

[Akiudo]

I have a pretty decent understanding about how brd works

okay, just to humor you and your pretty decent understanding of bard.

1. reportoire proccs=soul voice stack, you will NEVER want to miss extra procc chances no matter the song or whatever, your "pretty decent understanding" of bard ends with the fact that double proccs=double the soul voice, even during mages ballad or when allready at 4 stacks during wanderers.

ignoring that (lets just call it a small oversight and chuckle to ourselves)
.
2. proccs are on server ticks at 3 second intervalls, you will allways miss 1, however more likely 2 ticks of your proposed reportoire buff if you so much as move 2 steps out of any aoe, at any time, no matter what. not even blackmage is that restricted (even if we assume perfect play down to every cooldown 2 xenoglossy+triplecast still leaves more than 10 seconds of free movement every 80 seconds, thats not even throwing in a swiftcast or having a thundercloud procc simply line up conveniently)

3. the notion that there are "enough" proccs during mage ballad anyways is just stupid, unless you somehow reach 100% procc rate it is not "enough" if its possible to raise it.

4. you would still only want to be in wanderers 20 seconds if playing optimally, arguing one could stay in it longer would at best be akin to "blackmage can use xenoglossy at suboptimal buff timing" or things like that so don't even go there. with that being said even with all your great extra proccs theres no guarantee you will get 2 double proccs in a row or even 3 proccs+EA lining up early, lets be optimistic and say you will average out 4 proccs at 7~ seconds or so leaving you with 13 seconds of "free" movement, add to that you wouldn't want to move 3 seconds before switching so your great new procc mechanic is active when switching and you end up with 10~ seconds out of 80 of free movement. Your theoretical bard has less "free" movement time than blackmage even ignoring your complete misunderstanding how soul voice works.

5. while not as big you can at least a little bit adjust your positioning slowly by slidecasting which wouldn't be possible at all on your proposed bard, even ignoring that, say you sit directly next to the server so absolutely no slidecasting for you, if you know you need to stack in say 15 seconds and before that nothing happens that forces the group apart you got all of that 15 second window to get to the stack, you don't need an instant NOW, you need it during that 15 second window in such a case, as your theoretical proposed bard you've got no such luck.

oh and yea, at 10y range most things outside of medica 2 will most likely miss you, your position would literally have to be fixed at "directly 10 yalms behind the boss" or no way in hell you will get a 15y radius heal the healer starts from anywhere optimized to hit every melee+the tank, best case it gets decided your tank doesn't need the aoe and your heal can pull some "oh, i will just stay a little behind everyone else in the group" move,lets just hope no melee is trying to hit a positional right now or the caster is still 2 steps away from the group to the right as theres no need to exactly stack and this way works out better as pre positioning for the next mechanic. btw again "moving in" would with your bard suggestions ALLWAYS be a loss, no class, literally no class is in a position where movement is a loss no matter the circumstances, so yea, come again with your great understanding of bard.

You literally proposed turning bard into a less mobile version of blackmage (if wanting to play optimally) that on top of it all would have to do some weird positioning that that very same blackmage wouldn't have to do and in exchange suggested it should "only" be 3% or so behind.

[CKNovel]

To be honest, I'm just starting to believe that some ranged dps were simply too comfortable with the op status they enjoyed in the past (especially BRD) and can't accept their new position as normal jobs. Thankfully, most ranged dps are perfectly fine with the current situation.

Honestly, MCH wise because I didn't played BRD back then, HW MCH is considered the best MCH iteration by many and not damage wise. Others considers the SB MCH better if it had Flamethrower QoL.
It had multiple layers of complexity compared to what we have now. You probably knows how it works but for reminder:

Casting was influenced by multiple stance&tools, ammos would make the GCDs instant-cast, rapidfire would make the GCDs instant cast and set the GCDs cooldown at 1.5s.
You could also remove Gauss barrel to completely remove casts, trading damages for mobility.
It was multiple little things that made a MCH good. If you played like a caster, you would do normal damages but if you pushed the gimmicks to the fullest, it was a real reward, little but it was a reward.

These castings gimmicks were good. The SB iteration removed casting while keeping old CDs such as Rapidfire, the Ammos and Gauss Barrel which is why SB MCH had a mixed reception.
Now if you ask me to remind immobile for the whole Hypercharge duration, of course I'm going to be pissed if I can't deal 130% of the BLM DPS, able to slidecast, Aether manipulation and the leylines not locking the job in place. For myself, I just want double ranged to not be locked out of PF, I'm not fine with that.

If most ranged were perfectly fine, there wouldn't be these threads and they would die out instantly but they attract people, the debate still lives. It was already said, if mobility was so much of a component, why ranged dps were lower than anyone else on the very first week?
Wether you like it or not, ranged DPS were stripped of damages and utility and many wants to get something back, that's a fact. Tactician/Samba/Troubadour is not enough.

[Myon88]

Did you guys know that because of mobility creep over the years, current-BLM is pretty much as 'mobile' as machinist and bard were in their Heavensward golden age? If you're looking for a job with a high skill ceiling that rewards the effort you put in, I welcome all my ex-ranged brethren to come give BLM a shot. It has been the most overpowered job this entire expansion and it looks to be staying that way.

I sadly think the ranged are a lost cause this expansion, as the scale of fixes they require is large to the point it would take a new expansion to roll out, so come hang out with us casters until this all blows over.

[HyperiusUltima]

Snip

The problem with that DNC design would be the spawns...it'd have to pander to the fight, and would be relatively difficult for it to work. Like, some fights it'd be an absolute nightmare to even do that on(I'm staring at you, Final Omega).

I believe that we should consider just the static fixes to DNC's Esprit generation...you know what? I just had a brilliant idea: Procs from Flourish or base combo weaponskills would generate 10 Esprit each time they land. This would help smooth out DNC's issues in Solo as well as the erratic Esprit jumps you get from Tech sometimes and would help with DNC's burst phase damage during Tech/Devilment.

As for your idea with BRD, I agree with Shurrikhan. That's a good design that allows for fluency with those last 10s of AP and you aren't sitting waiting for the next song; could literally just replace that Haste Buff from AP.

With MCH, I'm kinda iffy on range...I think Air Anchor should be a "charge and release" skill. How it would charge would be like you use the movement mechanic in regards to Flamethrower. If you move during that 1.5s, you get 930 potency and 20 battery. If you don't move, you get that 1160 potency IN FULL. It may put a hamper on mobility, but generally we already have Drill in the case of Wildfire which is on a 20s CD at the end of the Hypercharge rotation. At the least, it'll still induce the GCD and you can get a single oGCD off.

[xxvaynxx]

Disclaimer:Let's clarify that the current DPS is balanced enough for the current content. E8S clear with double ranged (DNC/BRD) actually happened, sadly there is no clear with those two jobs before March 6 according to FFLogs. Yes, you can clear any content with BRD and DNC but it'll be ironically harder.

Hello fellow MCH/DNC/BRD,

As the title say, choose a weakness that would justify a buff, your imagination is the limit.
As the community claims, Mobility is so good that it allows us to DPS without worry and bring out the big numbers. Which never happened, Mobility has been a fake advantage and this tier proved it.
However it remains a truth that ranged jobs lacks complexity making them the DPS with the smallest variations when it comes to lower and upper percentiles.

So this is why I thought this thread could be usefull and would love to hear what you would consider a good weakness that could justify a buff.

What?? this tier doesn't prove anything. In fact. I think it proves why you don't need a buff for your mobility.
ES6 and ES8, even ES5.

i'm ok with the low damage IF they gave us (mch, bard, dancer) STRONG utility.

Dancer - Strong single target buffs

Bard - Strong group buffs and maybe a rez

Machinist - Strong long cooldown debuffs

You're basically asking for Brd/Mch meta again.

[Kabooa]

The problem with that DNC design would be the spawns...it'd have to pander to the fight, and would be relatively difficult for it to work. Like, some fights it'd be an absolute nightmare to even do that on(I'm staring at you, Final Omega).

Fair enough.

I'm iffy on the idea of charge and release as Flamethrower isn't really an example of Ability design that knocks it out of the park. Flamethrower is mostly ignored outside of Add packs and was mostly tolerated in Stormblood based on your wildfire set ups, and while Stockholm syndrome worked it's magic on me, I'm not sure how many would claim they liked the skill by itself, then and now.