It's time (Option to Hide other players Glamour)

[Bright-Flower]

The problem there being what is "inappropriate"? Whos standards do we use?
Marking outfits as "inappropriate" sends a message that certain people are "wrong" for what they're wearing and that is not the idea behind this option.

Yeah and it's not even a matter of 'silly' glam items like bikinis. Some sets of actual gear are skimpy. Shisui, sky rat, dancer artifact gear, etc.

You can mute someone via blacklist because people can harass you otherwise. Someone wearing a glam you don't like isn't harassment unless they're specifically stalking you around to do it, which isn't the case for cutscenes/duties.

[Poison_Rose]

This seems like a nonissue to me. I'm usually too focused on what I'm doing to pay much attention to other people's glamours, and I'd rather the devs spend more time adding content than implementing something like this.

EDIT: I already know this is going to get pointed out. No, I'm not super thrilled about stuff like umbrellas either.

[Crushnight]

The only version of this feature I will support is one that only changes those on your blacklist.

[Kohl]

“Vain trifles as they seem, clothes have, they say, more important offices than to merely keep us warm. They change our view of the world and the world's view of us.”
― Virginia Woolf, Orlando

I have a level of separation between me and my character in FFXIV. The main areas where there is an overlap are more subtle ones that happen because it can’t be helped; I play the character, therefor elements of me bleed over, like my preference for wearing black/dark colors. To varying degrees other players may have more or less separation with their characters; it may be individually important to many players that they are allowed to safely express their own identity through their characters. Everyone does this, most often without giving it conscious thought, to some extent in everything they do (you can learn a great deal about people by observing the choices they make out of reflex). It is also likely that the spectrum is pretty broad; from those that can freely express their identity with minimal backlash (there is always some backlash), to expressing their self-identity having severe consequences. I am not going to cast any judgments on whether or not this is or isn’t healthy, mainly because on the individual basis it may or may not actually be quite healthy. For example, if someone is struggling with suicidal thoughts but the love of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches is keeping them from self-harm, by all means, hold on to that, BP&J is 100% healthy for that person to buy them enough time to develop more things to hold onto life for.

Overlooking this factor and saying that it hurts no one to have this feature is something I have a problem with; the desire to (even in private on your own personal screen that views SE’s intellectual property) mute what outlet some have to express their identity is disturbing to me. From my perspective, if something would be bad if everyone did it, than there is a good chance it is bad for some, or a few, or even one person to do. Less harmful is still harmful. Maybe it is a minority who are expressing their identity or even autonomy through their characters, or maybe it is bigger than we can measure because of various factors (not on this forum, not wanting to wade into a hot topic… whatever), but it still doesn’t sit well with me.

I’ve stated before that there was a time that I would have landed on the side of people who want a filter, but over my years I have shifted where I stand on topics like this. So it isn’t like I do not understand the other side of the argument, I get it. I just don’t think it is a good idea anymore. Which sure, is my opinion, but it is based on experience and education (and no, that is not meant to imply that an experienced and educated person should have a similar stance as me because of having two things in common).

Immersion – arguing that it breaks immersion to see glamour that are jarring is inherently a more difficult argument to make due to the fact that we simply cannot have any glamour/gear item that the developers and authors of the games theme do not give us; they set the theme and tone and provide us with the world and the things in it. It is impossible for me to design my own gear and have it visible to the whole player base. This argument is more that someone else’s character image breaks another’s individual theme they are projecting onto the game.

Bigotry – is not a constructive word to throw around. It gets people all defensive and offended and starts getting tossed about like a hot potato (that’s on fire). A bigot is a person who is intolerant toward those holding a different opinion to them. Let’s be really clear, intolerant to the person holding the opinion, not the opinion itself. Bias might be a slightly better word to use as it has a broader meaning; it is felt towards any number of nouns. The thing about bias is that it is impossible to not be biased about something, no human is free of bias; so it’s a bit pointless to throw around but has a place while acknowledging personal bias.

I am not trying to inflict my values on others; I simply wish to be heard.

[Packetdancer]

This isn't about targeting people, it would be a blanket change, that is the only thing that is important. People aren't asking for "I want to change this person into this specific glamour", they are asking "can I turn off glamours to maintain immersion".

I mean, part of the problem is that people aren't consistent on what they're requesting. (Nor, for that matter, what they're objecting to.)

Just among those in favor, off the top of my head:

• Some folks have suggested they want a per-person blacklist where you can only pick specific players and disable the glamour system for them (i.e., showing whatever gear they're wearing, just disabling any glamour prism use for that person).
• Others have suggested they want a global way to just disable glamour prisms for everyone but their own character.
• Other folks have suggested they want a system that just globally puts everyone in job-appropriate artifact gear suited to their level.
• Others have suggested they would be fine with a system that just put people in the first set of artifact gear, period.
• Others have suggested that if people are upset about their character being changed, all characters just be replaced with the default character for that race/gender/background (i.e., the Poster Boy for Hyuran male midlander, etc.).
• Others have suggested that if people are upset about their character being changed, while others are concerned about the idea of replacing all dark-skinned NPCs with the light-skinned defaults, that all characters just be replaced with randomly-generated equivalents (like hitting the 'random' button in chargen) when glamour is disabled.
• Others have suggested that SquareEnix should curate a list of 'offensive' pieces which can be replaced with some alternate appearance. So, presumably, not just glamour, but making revealing things like the Shisui armor sets, the YoRHa armor sets, the dancer artifact gear, etc. all have separate 'less revealing/less skimpy' appearances to toggle on. (I may be misunderstanding this suggestion, to be fair; I'm not entirely clear what it was being suggested these pieces be replaced with.)

At any rate, that's a pretty broad spectrum of different things in the 'for the feature', and while it's possible to say "there's a lot of support for this feature!" I suspect that not all of those people like the same ideas from that last. I'd go so far as to say I suspect some in favor of the feature (in the abstract) might not be happy if certain of those suggestions were to be actually implemented.

Meanwhile, different people objecting all object to different things, sometimes to more than one thing on this list:

• Some view glamours as akin to art, and saying "I don't like this glamour so I demand it be removed" as being akin to going up to DeviantArt and demanding a painting you dislike be taken down, rather than just not visiting the page.
• Some deal with their gender presentation (or other aspects of identity) being restricted in the offline world—due to a dress code at work, expectations of family who aren't supportive, or whatever—so engage in it a bit in-game as an outlet. For those folks, even if their character isn't them, the idea of giving people a button to erase their identity in-game the same way they have to erase their identity iRL just feels like one more blow. As though they're being silenced yet again. (After all, the OP did explicitly call out men wearing the wedding gown as a motive for this request, which definitely is something I suspect non-binary folks who present masculine but like to dress feminine would feel is a bit of a personal attack on their identity.)
• Some deal with being judged on their clothing in day-to-day life ("You'd be prettier if you wore a skirt, you know. Show off those legs!") and find the idea of people trying to dictate what they can and can't wear in virtual worlds as well to be emotionally exhausting to contemplate. Just like, "Really? Here, too?"
• Some are RPers and find the idea of dictating their clothing/outfit to be akin to power-posing or godmoding, which is considered a faux pas. (The difference between "Khit stalks across the room and slaps Joe hard enough to rock him backwards." and "Khit stalks across the room, drawing her hand back as she approaches Joe. If he doesn't move, it's clear she's going to hit him with some force." The first is godmoding; it dictates Joe's reaction for him, giving him no option to try to dodge or grab Khit's wrist or whatever else. In contrast, the second leaves it open for him to react.)
• Some think the idea of replacing all characters with the racial defaults—even if it's coming from a well-meaning place of "see, that way, I'm not altering your character's appearance"—is faintly horrifying in the unintended potential white-washing.
• Some just find the "push a button to make the things you personally dislike disappear" mindset a little worrisome in an increasingly hostile and divided world, where they'd prefer folks learn tolerance of each other and maybe begin to get along.
• Some just dislike the idea of the 'strip away glamour and show actual job gear' removing their pants on someone's stream. (Again: why is so much female healer leg gear more or less underwear?)

I mean, I personally tick off a few different ones of the 'opposed' boxes; as a woman in a technical field I get judged on clothing on a day-to-day basis—that I dress 'too tomboyishly' for some people's tastes, etc.—and it feels a little exhausting to feel like the same thing is such a rallying point among the community around one of my favorite virtual worlds as well. I find the idea of replacing all characters with the fair-skinned defaults (as several people suggested) to be an extremely uncomfortable idea.

And I would like to keep my pants, thank you. Plus, I'm honestly not sure how putting someone in—for instance—YoRHa fending legs (which are underwear and a pair of stocking tops) along with the Forgiven chest piece (which does not cover below the waist in the front) or even just being in a complete set of Shisui fending gear is 'better for immersion' with a tank, for those who just want glamour stripped away (rather than replaced with a specific job set).

Moreover, there's probably other suggestions for (and objections to) the feature that I'm missing; as mentioned in the beginning of the post, these lists were just off the top of my head.

And in the end, the entire discussion is argued from an emotional base, and people will obviously be put on the defensive. Each side feels that they're clearly in the right and the other side is being unreasonable and selfish—and both sides are not hesitant to call out the other side as being so. Which puts each side on the defensive and prone to lashing back out in response. And the issue is that neither side is going to yield because neither is objectively wrong, even if for every single person participating the other side is subjectively wrong.

Which means this conversation will never go anywhere productive, and as I write this I realize I'm probably just contributing to the 'sound and fury, signifying nothing' with my participation. So I think I'll let this stand as my final contribution and bow out.

So gg, and TYFT. (Thank You For Thread.) And perhaps we'll bump into each other in the game at some point.

(Hopefully if we do, I still have pants.)

[Awha]

Properly going to have to tap out here, I joined the thread late since I was trying to understand the mindset around those that were against the idea of having more player agency options added to the game however, implausible they may be. I approached this topic under the lens it would never happen so did not consider the technology limitions, just looked at the idea itself.

I do not think I will ever understand, we have other features in the game that allow players to limit certain elements one may personally feels hinders their experience and overall people seem to be okay with those options. I do get that fashion is an art form, and for some it may be the only way that they can experess themselves, but the same could be said for language, and music but we have means of limiting those forms of expression. Personally seems like a double standard, or maybe it is due to how the OP worded the request and used examples like men in wedding dress and bikni tanks etc . . .

In the end I think my simplistic view on the matter is what is hindering my understanding of the fear surrounding this idea, since in my eyes this request does not differ much from the current options we have in place like black listing, performance muting, limiting of partical effects, langangue filters.

In the end I did enjoy the thread, and I took part to gain better understanding but left with far more questions, but that is life and it has been fun.

[Vahlnir]

Properly going to have to tap out here, I joined the thread late since I was trying to understand the mindset around those that were against the idea of having more player agency options added to the game however, implausible they may be. I approached this topic under the lens it would never happen so did not consider the technology limitions, just looked at the idea itself.

I do not think I will ever understand, we have other features in the game that allow players to limit certain elements one may personally feels hinders their experience and overall people seem to be okay with those options. I do get that fashion is an art form, and for some it may be the only way that they can experess themselves, but the same could be said for language, and music but we have means of limiting those forms of expression. Personally seems like a double standard, or maybe it is due to how the OP worded the request and used examples like men in wedding dress and bikni tanks etc . . .

I don't really have a problem with the concept, but I DO have an issue with how people are defending their stances (namely some in support of it, though some against it aren't doing so hot themselves). All this talk about harassment, bigotry, etc...that is not a good way to defend one's position especially when none of it makes any real sense in the context of the situation. If it weren't for all of that? Yeah, I'd throw my support behind this because I rarely have an issue with more player options. But for the sake of both sides I think it's a bad idea if this thread is any indication. It's a video game. People need to chill.

[Awha]

I don't really have a problem with the concept, but I DO have an issue with how people are defending their stances (namely some in support of it, though some against it aren't doing so hot themselves). All this talk about harassment, bigotry, etc...that is not a good way to defend one's position especially when none of it makes any real sense in the context of the situation. If it weren't for all of that? Yeah, I'd throw my support behind this because I rarely have an issue with more player options. But for the sake of both sides I think it's a bad idea if this thread is any indication. It's a video game. People need to chill.

That makes sense, I wish I could express what I would like to say better but I think overall if people took away assumed dangers, like harrassment, bigtory, intolerance and saw it from a player option perspective that is meant to improve personal enjoyment like blacklisting, performance muting, language filters etc. . . I do feel more people would be in favor of the concept but I think the way it was proposed will forever hinder it because now it has the stimga of taking away player agency, when in reality it improves it.

[Theodric]

I strongly believe that if the feature were to be implemented the backlash would be practically non-existent and die down rather quickly. The backlash aimed at the development team over the decision to only add one gender for both Hrothgar and Viera was a much more intense experience. If you go back through the early pages of the male viera thread then you can see that a significant number of the players who claimed to be quitting over it are caught up with Shadowbringers. In some cases they didn't just purchase the expansion, they also purchased a name change/fantasia as well.

It has become alarmingly common for a portion of pretty much any fan base to act in such a manner. As such, it all feels very much like a storm in a teacup to me. If implemented the game isn't going to crash and burn. A fair number of players will be happy with the decision or indifferent and although some may have their beef with it, they're unlikely to actually quit over it.

[Lauront]

I don't really have a problem with the concept, but I DO have an issue with how people are defending their stances (namely some in support of it, though some against it aren't doing so hot themselves). All this talk about harassment, bigotry, etc...that is not a good way to defend one's position especially when none of it makes any real sense in the context of the situation. If it weren't for all of that? Yeah, I'd throw my support behind this because I rarely have an issue with more player options. But for the sake of both sides I think it's a bad idea if this thread is any indication. It's a video game. People need to chill.

From what I've seen it's a case of someone suggests it, in come flooding the allegations of hypothetical bigotry, which shifts the topic to that. It's hardly fair to hold that against people who would like the feature. The OP even made it quite clear, but at the end of the day, to some people it would seem that simply not liking certain things is "bigotry". Well, in that case, they can hold to their view and I will simply reject it as having any basis in reality.