Delete Clemency and Vercure

[SamRF]

I've had PLDs clemming themselves right as I launch Essential Dignity. It's really ok with me because I can be slow and there is also the anxiety that comes with low health - no one likes being near death even for a second. It's also math. If you're at say, 30% HP then you know you're gonna die in the next 2 or 3 GCDs unless you get a heal. That is exactly why my minimum threshold is 50%.

What would you have done if you were 1 of the other 3 tanks? Do you really die often because of healers not healing? If not, it means that you're always playing more efficiently when you're playing other tanks (not that it matters). I think much better move would be to only use your "immortal" oGCD when you panick if it's off cooldown (HG should be used on cooldown tho for big pulls) and otherwise just trust the healer, unless they've proven that they aren't to be trusted.

Trustworthy until proven untrustworthy makes more sense imo as a mentality because you have no choice but to trust healer in most party compositions (when there's no PLD/RDM)

[LolitaBansheeMeru]

What would you have done if you were 1 of the other 3 tanks? Do you really die often because of healers not healing? If not, it means that you're always playing more efficiently when you're playing other tanks (not that it matters). I think much better move would be to only use your "immortal" oGCD when you panick if it's off cooldown (HG should be used on cooldown tho for big pulls) and otherwise just trust the healer, unless they've proven that they aren't to be trusted.

Trustworthy until proven untrustworthy makes more sense imo as a mentality because you have no choice but to trust healer in most party compositions (when there's no PLD/RDM)

Um warriors can self heal, Gunbreakers can heal sorta of, Dark knights can vampire zombie their hp so Not really

[SamRF]

Um warriors can self heal, Gunbreakers can heal sorta of, Dark knights can vampire zombie their hp so Not really

Yeah but those are oGCD's, they won't be sacrificing dps with those abilities. They also have a cooldown, so you can't use them repeatedly.

edit: Okay I get what you mean now, the other tanks also have a way to heal themselves is what you're saying, and PLD has no other way to heal themselves beside Clemency. In that case there's imo even more reason to change clemency into an oGCD healing ability with cooldown.

They're (Clemency & Vercure) the only potent targeted healing GCD skills outside of the healer role. They will be sacrificing dps when they use it (unless RDM prepares dualcast) and can be used repeatedly. All other self healing skills are oGCD and have a cooldown. Those won't be sacrificing dps and they can't use it very often. In my experience, those RDM and PLD that use Clemency/Vercure for no good reason will continue to use them often. They wouldn't be able to do that if there was a cooldown for example.

[Miste]

No.

How about we not try to homogenize the jobs anymore than they already are, and like keep some of the unique aspects they can bring to the table in emergency situations. It's always kinda cool being on RDM and having both healers go down and like you heal the tank up just enough to raise the healers and try to keep it going. It's fun, and it feels like how RDM should be.

The whole premise the OP has for deleting them is silly. You are too concerned about what other players are doing. As long as they are not trying to BE a healer role as a PLD or RDM and just only spamming their heals, then whatever.

I won't say I don't ever see some PLDs use Clemency unnecessarily in dungeons (because I have), but it's not a big deal? It isn't optimal play for them if the healer has good control of the situation, but outside of savage/ex/ultimate it isn't a big deal at all. I just shrug and DPS more if I am on healer....moar Holy!

[Rasikko]

What would you have done if you were 1 of the other 3 tanks? Do you really die often because of healers not healing? If not, it means that you're always playing more efficiently when you're playing other tanks (not that it matters). I think much better move would be to only use your "immortal" oGCD when you panick if it's off cooldown (HG should be used on cooldown tho for big pulls) and otherwise just trust the healer, unless they've proven that they aren't to be trusted.

Trustworthy until proven untrustworthy makes more sense imo as a mentality because you have no choice but to trust healer in most party compositions (when there's no PLD/RDM)

I don't know why you asked this. I said that tanks using self heals, especially PLDs, are fine with me, and I'm advocate of it. It's everyone's responsibility to ensure their own survival at whatever cost.

Yes I have died as a tank multiple times because I wasn't being healed. I don't play PLD anymore because I got into a fight with an AST over this very matter.

Outside heal skills bother most healers because it exposes their bad style of healing.

[Gofr]

I don't know why you asked this. I said that tanks using self heals, especially PLDs, are fine with me, and I'm advocate of it. It's everyone's responsibility to ensure their own survival at whatever cost.

Yes I have died as a tank multiple times because I wasn't being healed. I don't play PLD anymore because I got into a fight with an AST over this very matter.

Outside heal skills bother most healers because it exposes their bad style of healing.

I main ranged dps, but occasionally pull out PLD or GNB just to vary things up a bit and keep things fresh. Was in a run few months ago as PLD where literally every other large pull I had to clemency myself multiple times just to stay alive. The healer was.....not efficient, AT ALL. I try not to rag on bad healers too much personally as I also have a WHM and man am I super terrible at it. I've always been terrible at healing in every MMO I've played, so no surprise. So much harder than simple dps or even tanking.

Anyway, I'm going off topic. My point that I'm trying to make is that in that run, I was damn happy to have clemency to make things easier and actually possible. Never mind the number of times as a RDM that I've kept things going...(which btw I love doing as a RDM. Gives me great glee when I prevent wipes as a RDM. lol)

[SinisterJoints]

edit: Okay I get what you mean now, the other tanks also have a way to heal themselves is what you're saying, and PLD has no other way to heal themselves beside Clemency. In that case there's imo even more reason to change clemency into an oGCD healing ability with cooldown.

how about no

You don't even main a tank, you don't even have a max level job. you don't get to say what tanks should have BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW THE END GAME APPLICATIONS WORK ---

Highest tank job -- 72, Rdm is 69..... smh

IDC what you think, stop trying to change classes you don't even main or play..... go away

[SnowVix]

Anyone who supports removing Vercure, please tell me how you will rewrite the red mage solo duties that absolutely require you to heal for completion (60 and 70, if I'm recalling correctly, so they're duties that gate abilities behind them) before you continue to support that.

[SamRF]

how about no

You don't even main a tank, you don't even have a max level job. you don't get to say what tanks should have BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW THE END GAME APPLICATIONS WORK ---

Highest tank job -- 72, Rdm is 69..... smh

IDC what you think, stop trying to change classes you don't even main or play..... go away

I'm just giving my opinion, you don't need to care about it. There's no need to get personal. The fact that I don't have a job at max has no effect on my arguments whatsoever.

Also, I've got almost all jobs nearing lvl 70 and have been playing since 2.2 so it's not like I'm new.

[Sebazy]

The fact that I don't have a job at max has no effect on my arguments whatsoever.

Also, I've got almost all jobs nearing lvl 70 and have been playing since 2.2 so it's not like I'm new.

There's a stark difference between play in levelling duties vs at the end game and the contrast only gets more severe the higher end you go.