Revelations from Patch 5.2

[Scintilla]

Not necessarily...

The only thing the line implies is that the rebels knew Zodiark's supporters would hate them for summoning Hydaelyn, whose purpose was to shackle their savior (so as to prevent him from devouring the new lives of the world). The exact consequences of (trying to) do so could not have been foreseen; to say they considered the Sundering a likely if not inevitable outcome assumes several points of information.

Further one of the key points of Shadowbringers was heroes being branded villains for going against authority despite the depravity of said authorities (the conflict with Vauthry); to say their actions paint them in a negative light is ignores this.

To reduce the story to being ‘heroes against depraved authorities’ is quite an oversimplification. Another recurring point throughout Shadowbringers has been that the good-evil divide is not always as clear cut as we’d like to imagine.

Venat and the rest of Hydaelyn’s supporters may have made their choices with the best of intentions, but, as far as we are aware, the same could arguably be said of the Convocation. To force such a decision, which would affect all survivors (their awareness of how much so may be debatable), in full knowledge that there was little support for it, strays too far from democracy to sit well for me right now.

[Lauront]

To reduce the story to being ‘heroes against depraved authorities’ is quite an oversimplification. Another recurring point throughout Shadowbringers has been that the good-evil divide is not always as clear cut as we’d like to imagine.

Venat and the rest of Hydaelyn’s supporters may have made their choices with the best of intentions, but, as far as we are aware, the same could arguably be said of the Convocation. To force such a decision, which would affect all survivors (their awareness of how much so may be debatable), in full knowledge that there was little support for it, strays too far from democracy to sit well for me right now.

That's my reading of the events, too.

They came across as well-intentioned extremists, and did not chastise the Convocation for being depraved, but for not entertaining their concerns - there may be a truth to this, in that the Convocation was uninterested in imposing further hardships on their people after what they had endured and had its own plans on how to restore the world to its rightful state, by bringing back their fallen. I am beginning to think that the reason behind why Venat's group did not endorse this course of action might not have (solely) stemmed out of sympathy for this "new life" to feature in the sacrifice, but out of a belief that because it lacked the same inherent potential for Creation magicks, it would not risk suffering the same fate as did the ancients, something the Convocation would regard as aberrant.

I am also partial to the theory I've seen that the 14th did not outright deny the Dissidents' request (even if they would frown upon a second Primal much as they would frown upon the first), but left the Convocation in the hopes of resolving the crisis before they implemented their plans, perhaps fearful of the risks of summoning Primals, especially on that scale. We know that the Final Days escalated rapidly, and it is possible that it took hold of Amaurot before they could return, resulting in Zodiark's summoning and the apparent end of the crisis. For whatever reason, Venat's group had different views, acknowledged the Convocation meant well but would not listen to them, and sought to thus force their solution on it by either "checking" Zodiark or ousting him entirely, and replacing him with what they deemed to be a superior solution. As yet, the Sundering does not necessarily seem to be intended, but Elidibus's moon epilogue in 5.0 does mention that the wiping of memories of the ancient world and of the truth of the sundered lifeforms' fragmented existences was intended by her summoners, so there is a reasonable possibility that so too was the Sundering, or that this enervation was at least intended for the ancients themselves.

A possibility worth entertaining is that this crisis originated in the Underworld, which based on Hades's short story, was a part of the "aetherial realm" the Ancients could not venture into and scarcely controlled but only glimpsed. The phoenix in that story, after all, involved an apparent anomaly in the behaviour of a soul, which by all rights should have returned to the Underworld. The nature of the Underworld makes it a big unknown and introduces the possibility of why the crisis was so poorly understood. We've seen a few references now to the Titans, the Chthonic (=relating to the Underworld) deities preceding the Olympians in Greek mythology, both in Eden, with names like Gaia (mother of the Titans), Erebos and Nyx (born from Chaos, supposedly Gaia's progenitor), and also in the symbolism in Therion's title, the Chthonic Riddle (the resolution of which marked the transition from the Titans to the Olympian deities.) Some interpretation of them is therefore a possibility. Regardless of the actual cause, perhaps then the 14th ventured into this realm to resolve the issue, and did not return, even if they succeeded in sealing away whatever caused the crisis (thus why it is currently an unknown.) With all this occurring during this whole mess resulting in Zodiark and Hydaelyn being summoned, it would then escalate to the point that it was too late, and the world sundered. This is consistent with Emet-Selch's apparent incredulity on the revelation of the character's Amaurotine identity. He knows you are the fragment of a sundered ancient soul, and a powerful one at that, but perhaps this specific one was deemed lost to the world. The 5.0 epilogue asks by what hand would this war between light and dark - ultimately, a war of two Primals - be resolved, and perhaps this is where the neutrality of the 14th becomes relevant.

[QT_Melon]

To reduce the story to being ‘heroes against depraved authorities’ is quite an oversimplification. Another recurring point throughout Shadowbringers has been that the good-evil divide is not always as clear cut as we’d like to imagine.

Venat and the rest of Hydaelyn’s supporters may have made their choices with the best of intentions, but, as far as we are aware, the same could arguably be said of the Convocation. To force such a decision, which would affect all survivors (their awareness of how much so may be debatable), in full knowledge that there was little support for it, strays too far from democracy to sit well for me right now.

I'm going to have to agree with this sentiment

Mainly due to the fact people immediately assumed that the WoL did the sacrifice to create Hydaelyn for the greater good. Of course this was proven wrong. So now we have to remold the story. -And for that matter someone needs to fix the FF Wiki too :P

I do not think the WoL was dead by the time Hydaelyn was summoned mainly because I'm not sure the reincarnation was quite in effect yet, but I do believe Hydaelyn helped with creating that effect.

I think the effect of tempering created a 1 sided view of the life cycle. I think it was more at stake than just the fact the new life was going to be sacrificed, I think it was just gonna keep going and that's why the group in 5.2 saw this as an issue, it was unbalanced. Chaos brought life to the planet but chaos also can kill it. Venat was absolutely speaking about balance. (Ironically something that Elidibus also spoke about - though seems some retconning about how too much of dark/light does nothing for his master -patch 4.56 if I remember correctly)

This also aligns with Hydaelyn's dialog later after the AntiTower light and dark lived side by side. It was the coveting of power, that she had to enact the failsafe as Hydaelyn. The problem of course is what happens when the eventual failsafe takes over? Hydaelyn has in fact been generally helpful no doubt but she was created to be a BALANCE and there is something to be said if the balance was broken

I personally think that the WoL did something during the time of summoning Zodiark like being Light aligned which works well with Hydaelyn which is why the alliance formed.

There is another reason why the WoL would gravitate towards Hydaelyn as well. I believe she is a primal with a soul. The reason I'm thinking this may have to do with the side tale with Emet being part of the Underworld and finding out with the bird that creation magic was attaching itself to souls (or the other way around). The mystery with Elidibus may actually be whether or not he actually sacrificed himself to actually be the heart or if someone else did - or if there was an actual sacrifice. Venat believes this happened as do the other members. But it seems strange how the Zodiark tempered but Hydaelyn did not or at least it appears she didn't. I think the fact that Venat served as the soul may possibly be the difference.

That said, like Y'shtola this is all speculation and it's interesting that the theme of this patch is that how people are interpreting certain events - as a cautionary tale. It's not only with the discussion at the 'Ravel but also with the Beast Tribe...and I think that was intentional with our speculation. There's 2 sides to every story and in the middle there's what really happened.