Revelations from Patch 5.2

[polyphonica]

Could she be bad? Of course that can always happen. Could she still have tempered us? Of course she could. But right now I doubt any of that.

In alignment with this...

I think the main evidence to support your doubt is the whole narrative arc involving Minfilia and the Word of the Mother that comes to a head in Shadowbringers. Given that Minfilia is portrayed as being most in-tune with Hydaelyn's will and she is acting as Hydaelyn's voice, it'd take quite a twist to turn around and say that at least Minfilia's underlying intentions in saving the first and trusting her power to Ryne are bad/evil. Now, it's certainly the case that the means used by Hydaelyn has undesirable consequences, and the 14th convocation member may have been justified in not wanting to take either side at first (presumably since they were seeking a third way). But given just the two options on the table, I don't think we can really end up at a "both sides are equally bad" conclusion after all that's happened. Perhaps a "lesser of two evils" at best.


Regarding tempering... I mean, let's say for the sake of argument that all the people "force-fed" the echo are now "tempered" by Hydaelyn, such that it is. The effect of said tempering seems to be that they want to help others, but are otherwise in full control of their faculties. (Most of the people force-fed the echo at the Crystarium were convinced to keep their jobs for now, and the ones who left were already on that path anyway from what we saw before.) So... at that point what is even the point of calling it tempering, even if that's technically what it is? You have the "try to be good unto others and stand up to evil" disease? I mean, I suppose side-effects can include the committing of heroic deeds with the risks of unintended consequences and injury up to and including death... but all the examples we have clearly know the risks and try to weigh the consequences as best as they can. The difference between that and free will/self-determination are almost semantics. (Based on what we know about reincarnation, you're arguably more likely to be influenced by the soul you inherit or the aether that quickens you.)

Of course, if you're looking at it from the Ascian perspective it's bad, because the effect of "Hydaelyn's tempering" (again, for the sake of argument) makes sundered life more able to resist the Team Zodiark plan (to sacrifice the lives newly-born to bring back the Amaurotines). This sort of "pesky and insatiable desire to do good" is thwarting (or at least long-delaying) their plans to return the world to what they feel is its rightful state, but that's only because they considered sundered life to basically be a pitiable devolution that should be put out of its misery (so their souls can be as originally intended). The fact Hydaelyn uses the meteor shower as a trigger obviously will rub the Ascians the wrong way, because to them too that's what it's all about.

At the end of the day, assuming it is tempering, what matters seems to be the primal's underlying goal/desire. Because Hydaelyn's primary goal/desire appears to be to ensure the stability of sundered lives (and prevent them from being sacrificed to Zodiark), the net effect can generally be said to be beneficial to sundered life's survival/stability. (When evil threatens, heroes rise up, because otherwise the Ascians win.) So long as we remain on "Team Sundered Life" (as opposed to "Team Rejoining") we kind of have to side with that, at least for lack of a better option. The fact that Elidibus appears to be abusing that here for nefarious purposes is less a problem with Hydaelyn herself than it is a problem with those manipulating Hydaelyn -- but because Hydaelyn caused the sundering to start with, Elidibus considers her the problem from start to end.


All that being said... I do wonder if, for Elidibus's purposes, the line between "echo user" and "Warrior of Light" is not as firm. If we end up getting killed at the hands of "not-technically Warriors of Light yet" I don't think he'll be inconvenienced by the distinction. They can still progress towards earning their crystals of light after we're out of the picture and still tip the world to light without us there to stop them. Of course, how he's going to turn them (assuming that's still the plan) is the real question.

Edit: In reconsidering my earlier theory...

In the end, maybe the way to earn the scorn of all the new WoL candidates is much simpler: kill "Ardbert." (Just his Artbert form I assume would be the plan - obviously Elidibus would be planning to get away.) That would definitely make us the "bad guy," at least on the surface, and would make Ardbert a weird sort of martyr (because all he was visibly telling people was to do good and help their fellow person, and he helped awaken them to the echo). But if that's really Elidibus's grand plan, it's hard to think that'd be enough to convince all these "WoL wannabes" to go so far as to kill us ("death at the hands of warriors of light"). In the grand scheme of all that's happened, he's still a recent arrival and hard to see that he'd have that much sway compared to all we've done. Plus, it's not like he went out of his way to announce himself to us either; we just figured it out by his poor performance.
That's why I originally thought an outward "calamity" ostensibly caused by us would be more likely to force things to a head, but it's quite valid that maybe there's not enough time to stage that right now (and the closing scene of 5.2 is clearly trying to make this "personal").

Maybe the whole moral of the story is that Elidibus is overestimating himself and underestimating us (despite how many Ascians we've killed), and that will be the key to his downfall as well, but seems sort of a sad way to go for someone apparently so key to the whole thing. (How did that line go? "I thought you were supposed to be good at this..." I guess we did beat him once already in Zenos' body, though, so maybe he isn't...)

[Wyssahtyn]

Beast Tribe:

Can't say I'm comfortable with deciding the Qitari's history based off of so little information and such subjective interpretations. And why can't we go talk to the Viis about it? Surely they might have some old story that could provide further insight. All in all it doesn't seem like the Qitari are very good at their job as historians. Surely the logical thing would be to at least wait until all the stelae are excavated before trying to piece together a narrative?

[MrThinker]

Beast Tribe:

Can't say I'm comfortable with deciding the Qitari's history based off of so little information and such subjective interpretations. And why can't we go talk to the Viis about it? Surely they might have some old story that could provide further insight. All in all it doesn't seem like the Qitari are very good at their job as historians. Surely the logical thing would be to at least wait until all the stelae are excavated before trying to piece together a narrative?

I think you are being a bit too rough on them.

Don't blame the Qitari for bowing to the all-powerful-all-knowing Great Seprent of Ronka's opinion that we, the ally of Ronka, should be the ones to choose how they are remembered bar everyone else's opinion.

MSQ

This patch very much felt like set-up for a finale to me, but in a way that I feel makes it much more engaging than 4.2 at the very least. Can't say anything about 3.2 because it flowed straight into 3.3 by the time I joined the game. Revelations wise, having Venat be the Ancient that formed Hydaelyn's heart is a great nod to FFXII, while the fact that Venat (who seems to be female based on the way her model looks) had 12 key accomplices is fine kindling for the fire that is "The Twelve summoned Hydaelyn" theory.

I think it was already suspected that the Echo was an indication for possessing the fragment of an Ancient's soul, but am glad that Elidibus essentially confirmed it with the starshower explanation, but at the same time, he makes it sound as if ALL souls are fragments, rather than some. Maybe other languages clarify it better. As for Amnanesis Anyder, cool Sastasha swing remix.... but oh my that Sahagin Queen was NOT what I expected.

Besides that, I was excited to see the small animations coming out more detailed than they previously were (that kettle pouring water), giving our character more of a character in the indignation they feel regarding Elidibus possessing Ardbert's body, and the general improved cinematography they seem to be employing.

Eden

While the fights were great spectacles, I felt Gaia's introduction could have used a bit more work instead of such a jarring (IMO) entrance. Also about Urianger and Thancreds departure from the story. I understand it, but it was relatively abrupt and out of place. While I'm glad they finished up the entire 'restore the elements by fighting primals' plot, when Ryne said she should play host to Shiva like Ysayle did, I was disappointed that I didn't get given the option to at least point out that it would be a bad idea, regardless of the 'she needs to be independent' thing.

Besides that, we didn't really learn much more about Eden itself, and now have more questions on what Gaia is meant to be as 'Oracle of Darkness' and what the true nature of the Idol of Darkness was meant to be. Urianger said it may have been the fragment of Zodiark's power that exists on the First, but they glossed over it really quickly.

Sorrow of Werlyt

Who put Evangelion/Gundam in my fantasy game? Yoshi-P and the devs, that's who. Regardless, the fight was well-designed (imo) and the whole 'synthetic auracite' used to recreate Nael is
probably gonna be key to the story. Speaking of Nael, how the heck did they get the info regarding Nael deus Darnus? That form should only have been witnessed by the WoL and Alisaie in the Holocharts of the second coil. Is Alisiae a Garlean sleeper agent? Are WE a sleeper agent? (tin foil hat theories, don't pay attention to them). More than likely it just has to do with how the 'synthetic auracite' works in reinterpreting the information given.

Also Gaius and his orphans. Glad we get to see how an enemy who might not necessarily be evil, but is still firmly (atm) opposed to us react to the presence of what they may believe to be their greatest threat... but I also want to question their reactions to finding out their 'father' is fighting against the empire. They served the Empire solely to be useful to him, but now that he's a traitor, they refuse to believe that he may be right for doing so. Then again we did kill their sister in combat (even if she was the aggressor), and it seems from that last cutscene that it appears to be a case of "we're in to deep to go back now". Also the elezen companion of Gaius seems to be the one holding Gaius in check. I wonder what story HE has.

[RyuDragnier]

Beast Tribe:

Can't say I'm comfortable with deciding the Qitari's history based off of so little information and such subjective interpretations. And why can't we go talk to the Viis about it? Surely they might have some old story that could provide further insight. All in all it doesn't seem like the Qitari are very good at their job as historians. Surely the logical thing would be to at least wait until all the stelae are excavated before trying to piece together a narrative?

A suggestion.

Interpret it based on what we know of the Ascians. Either choice would work in a normal context from what the Ascians usual MO is for civilizations. The question here is, do you think they'd have the Ronso subjugate the weaker race of the Qitari by force, or have them become indebted to the Ronso by protecting the weaker race from a threat that may or may not have been set up in advance?

[YianKutku]

So anyone else notice about Gaia...

She was constantly having inner monologue towards herself like Squall does in FF8.

Gaia:

To be honest, my first impression was that she was basically being early-game Neku from The World Ends With You. And then I checked online after doing the Eden stuff to see that people were comparing her to Squall instead, and upon consideration it fits too.

Which makes me wonder if Nomura basically has one protagonist archetype he uses over and over again.

Beast Tribe:

Can't say I'm comfortable with deciding the Qitari's history based off of so little information and such subjective interpretations. And why can't we go talk to the Viis about it? Surely they might have some old story that could provide further insight. All in all it doesn't seem like the Qitari are very good at their job as historians. Surely the logical thing would be to at least wait until all the stelae are excavated before trying to piece together a narrative?

Qitari:

Yeah, same here. We had to make a decision based only on single accounts from father and son, secondhand sources. No corroborating information from anyone, even the stela itself; even if we couldn't access it, we could maybe get some drawings and impressions of it.

I went with the son's interpretation, partly because when we first visited the Viis part of Rak'tika in 5.0 MSQ, we used a symbol proclaiming us as Ronka's allies. The Allagan Empire had no allies, since they simply subjugated every other polity in existence at the time. Therefore, Ronka was at least not as ruthless as the Allagans, and saw the need to at least keep other polities around as allies.

Also, to take a more cynical view, even if the Ronkans had enslaved the Qitari, they probably wouldn't commission (or allow the creation of) a record stating as much. Hagiography would imply they'd portray it as "uplifting the savages", the same way colonialist-apologist arguments in RL do.

But honestly, I'd have much preferred to express the opinion that we do not know, and provide both (or more) interpretations for people who viewed the stelae to decide for themselves.

---

MSQ:

It was kind of amusing that after the relatively chatty Emet-Selch, and the very monologue-y Lahabrea, Elidibus here is just "I'm not going to tell you".

I like that everyone acknowledges how the desire to help others is commendable and should be encouraged, but this time is more iffy entirely because an Ascian is involved, and prior history has proven that Ascians simply will not leave matters well enough alone. We see the effects on the Crystarium foremost, partly because the Crystarium is already full of people who are willing to work together for a better future, as opposed to Eulmore deciding to embrace the status quo under Vauthry, which only recently changed.

It's also kind of odd that apparently Elidibus (as Ardbert) has some sort of psionic dominion over everyone he talks to, since they apparently decided to drop everything and go off adventuring. It's implied that even non-combatants want to go and spread the Good Word as adventurers and Warriors of Light, causing severe manpower shortages in the Crystarium. Surely "helping others" would also include providing logistics support to those on the frontlines?

I personally believe that Elidibus hasn't actually planned out anything concrete other than "create lots of Echo-blessed WoLs", with possible plans for later that he can discard or modify as necessary depending on which leads seem more promising. So he could try to turn the First-WoLs against us, or he could try to inspire several of them to develop Crystals of Light and retry the Brink of Light situation, or he could be DDoSing Hydaelyn, or he could be causing chaos by depriving institutions of manpower and expertise, or he could be doing any or all combinations of the above and more. Improvise, adapt, overcome, and all that.

Ruby Weapon:

Reminder that Gaius adopted and raised Livia, then accepted her wanting to be lovers, albeit apparently in a "my quarters, one hour" sort of casual relationship. And then when Livia died in Castrum Meridianum, Gaius said not one word about her death in his monologues in the Praetorium.

So his apparent concern for his other adopted children rings a little hollow.

I agree with others that it's weird nobody talks about Nero. Gaius should at least acknowledge Nero's part in activating the Ultima Weapon, and Cid should at least mention that Nero owes him money.

Eden, E7N mechanics:

Did anyone else get baited by the birds mechanic? I mean, if there's a flock of white birds, and a flock of black birds, and we're supposed to assign them Light and Darkness, I would assume the white birds represent Light, and the black birds represent Darkness.

So when I see this debuff tooltip:



That states I have an Umbral (Light) Effect, and as it states, damage from umbrally charged (Light) attacks are increased, while damage from astrally charged (Darkness) attacks are decreased. So it implies that I should stand in front of the black birds, since that's Darkness.

But no, it's the other way around: the debuff is dark-coloured (as opposed to the opposite light-coloured debuff), so I have to stand in front of the white birds. Despite the white birds being logically the Light (Umbral) aspect, which the tooltip says I will get more damage from.

So either the white birds are Darkness and black birds are Light (hence being baited), or the tooltip is incorrect (cf the Kelpie back in Skalla before it got patched).

[polyphonica]

MSQ:

I personally believe that Elidibus hasn't actually planned out anything concrete other than "create lots of Echo-blessed WoLs", with possible plans for later that he can discard or modify as necessary depending on which leads seem more promising. So he could try to turn the First-WoLs against us, or he could try to inspire several of them to develop Crystals of Light and retry the Brink of Light situation, or he could be DDoSing Hydaelyn, or he could be causing chaos by depriving institutions of manpower and expertise, or he could be doing any or all combinations of the above and more. Improvise, adapt, overcome, and all that.

Regarding this...

You may well be right, and obviously even the best plan should be flexible/allow for contingencies, but if he really has no concrete plan that would seem rather inept for the last unsundered Ascian when facing us. Considering he specifically narrates (for our benefit in the audience, obviously) his intention to keep the protagonist mired on the first and be killed by Warriors of Light, and considering he knows we killed Emet-Selch (and presumably knows we have the ability to travel between the First and Source at will), I sort of expect his plan to be more calculated/thought-through. Given also that we spent this whole patch wondering (to almost a silly degree) "what could he be planning?!" while all this stuff is clearly going on around us, it seems like it'd be a lot more satisfying from a narrative point of view if the actual reveal has a significant "oh crap" aspect beyond what we can mostly expect (try to turn the world back to light to cause the rejoining after all, etc.).

In other words... in other circumstances I could believe he doesn't have a plan and is just being an Ascian sowing chaos. But in this specific case, given all the foreshadowing, the fact we're driving to the second finale of Shadowbringers next patch, and the fact he's "the Last True Amaurotine" (barring any additional surprise about Vanat) and seeming heart of Zodiark, seems to me that he probably does have a master plan to kill us and that his plan will nearly work. He's got to make for a satisfying boss somehow and the whole thing that led to the Flood of Light in the first place was his plan all along.

[Alleo]

In alignment with this...

Deleted the rest so to make the post not so big.

Hydealyn

I agree with your points. Of course SE could turn this all around but then that begs the question. How are people able to betray her if she tempers anyone that are either WoL or that she woke up to echo? We have quite a bit of WoL that turned on her and that got power hungry or outright tried to work against her. That does not make sense if she tempers people. Also we have quite a few people on the source with the echo that are not working in any way for a greater good.

In the end I would find it strange if they go with the way that we too are tempered. We already barely have any ways to control our characters but then to know that they have no mind of their own just outright destroys anything about them. Of course they could go the route of "well we as players are basically the "tempering".

We also dont have all information right now. Yes the 14th said no to the initial meeting (or more they said that they did not answer at all) but maybe this is just another red hering. We might not be the one that summoned her but maybe we were still on their side just may not have agreed with the methods...because having a high member just being completely neutral through all of this just feels bad. The only way for it to be acceptable is for them to have another plan..but in the end that plan failed..or maybe Venat never planned to split the source apart since she only talks about keeping Zodiark in check..maybe it was the 14th that found out that the Terminus will happen again as long as creation magic exits as powerful as its right now and kinda snug in the splitting.

[Swilly]

Ruby Weapon:

Cid should at least mention that Nero owes him money.

Ohhhh, so THAT'S why he's been hiding since 4.4!

[RicaRuin]

Eden, E7N mechanics:

Did anyone else get baited by the birds mechanic? I mean, if there's a flock of white birds, and a flock of black birds, and we're supposed to assign them Light and Darkness, I would assume the white birds represent Light, and the black birds represent Darkness.

So when I see this debuff tooltip:



That states I have an Umbral (Light) Effect, and as it states, damage from umbrally charged (Light) attacks are increased, while damage from astrally charged (Darkness) attacks are decreased. So it implies that I should stand in front of the black birds, since that's Darkness.

But no, it's the other way around: the debuff is dark-coloured (as opposed to the opposite light-coloured debuff), so I have to stand in front of the white birds. Despite the white birds being logically the Light (Umbral) aspect, which the tooltip says I will get more damage from.

So either the white birds are Darkness and black birds are Light (hence being baited), or the tooltip is incorrect (cf the Kelpie back in Skalla before it got patched).

Using a spoiler just in case...

Light was Astral, Darkness was Umbral. So it it says you take decreased damage from Astral attacks (when you have purple debuff), you have to get hit by the white birds.

[MrThinker]

Using a spoiler just in case...

Light was Astral, Darkness was Umbral. So it it says you take decreased damage from Astral attacks (when you have purple debuff), you have to get hit by the white birds.

Which is the problem, because as we found out in Shadowbringers..

light is actually associated with the umbral pole (stasis), and darkness with the astral pole (active). So a light attack should be an UMBRAL attack rather than Astral attack.
Given this, the only way the attacks make sense is if the white coloured birds are actually darkness birds. Or the battle design and translation teams forgot that Light is Umbral in this game for that one mechanic.