Thread: Revelations from Patch 5.2

On Gaius

While I like Gaius as a character, the WoL's continued dislike and mistrust of him is completely justified. I feel that if SE was going to take the easy way out with Gaius they wouldn't have shown that continuing distrust. Nero also started out as an enemy and is now an ally, and we didn't instantly trust him either.

In 1.0 Gaius was presented as at least being capable of reason and restraint, and served as a foil for Nael. I don't really feel that that "misguided but not evil" is a retcon of Gauis's character in 1.0 and ARR rather that we are learning more about the character (and the Empire) than what we knew before. Characterizing them as misguided doesn't justify what the Gauis (or the Empire) has done which is something that Gaius himself seems very aware of. I think that evil actions can be done by people who aren't inherently evil or for reasons that aren't or at least don't begin as inherently evil is one of the big themes of Shadowbringers as a whole.

I was skeptical of Yotsuyu's patch arc in Stormblood when it began but ended up liking it. The writing overall has been excellent in Shadowbringers (although I think the Eden story in 5.2 was a weak point) so I have hope that whatever arc they have planned for Gaius will make sense within the FFXIV world and plot and not just be shoehorned in because he is a popular character.

/10character

The thing with Gaius is I don't think any of the characters are acting like he's forgiven? I sure haven't gotten the impression anyone is okay with him, like look at how Cid was talking after the trial. Working with Gaius against the Weapons because he has valuable knowledge about them and their pilots isn't the same as being his friend.

Originally Posted by Enla

I'm still scratching my head over how they failed to see the link between the Red Kyojin and Asahi back in Stormblood - though the obvious answer is that the plot demands that they be kept in the dark for the sake of a potential 'gotcha' moment.

They DID see the link. The dialog after the Red Kojin encounter mentions how suspicious it is that the ambush conveniently happened when it did. They then go on to say that regardless, they need to treat Asahi like the ambassador he is, as the success of the hostage release depends on the negotiations. As long as Asahi continues to play ball, they're willing to go along with it - but are keeping their eyes open for deception. His eventual betrayal came as an actual surprise to no one, in game or out. The form the betrayal took was the only thing unexpected. (And, in fairness, a Garlean summoning a Primal is rightfully pretty low on the list of expectations, I'd say.)

Originally Posted by Cilia

Err. The big question I have, other than who is the VIIth's new Legatus spearheading the project, is how the kupo did they get combat data on deus Darnus? She only appeared in her winged, facemarked form in the Binding Coils... and the only people who saw her down there were Alisae and the WoL, so what the kupo is going on?!

My suspicion is that...

Giant, naked Darnus was never the intention. Whatever happened there, something went terribly wrong. While I don't doubt the Garleans would be willing to sacrifice their pilots, I'm guessing that whatever techniques they used to "record battle data" wound up ensnaring a piece of Nael's soul in the process. Instead of just giving the pilot Nael's battle skills, their souls wound up fused together, with very unpleasant results. One can only hope that in death, the souls were able to separate again.

The worst part is, the Garleans may not even be aware of what happened. Depending on what means they had to monitor the fight, it could be the only info they have is that the WoL beat their creation. They may not know how, or what happened over the course of the battle. In which case, they may bull on ahead with Sapphire and Diamond without taking any steps to prevent the tragedy from repeating...

Originally Posted by EdwinLi

So anyone else notice about Gaia...

She's also just as moody and introverted!

Originally Posted by Evraeh

If I can say, first time I saw Estinien in Heavensward with so much hate for the Dragons without knowing them, I couldn't stand with him. Really. But we helped to open his eyes as well.

Ah, but Estinien doesn't hate dragons. He hates Nidhogg. Dragons in general, he mistrusts, but is willing to leave them be as long as they don't attack him. It's one of the things I admired about his character throughout Heavensward - he was driven by hatred and revenge, but he kept that desire trained on the true culprit, with laser focus. We encountered many, many dragons while traveling with Estinien and Ysayle, and it was rare for him to even speak rudely to them.

My thoughts on this patch's story content:

MSQ:

They mostly just teased us this time around - and even had the audacity to say as much through the characters in-game, with the comment that the recordings of the ancients had raised more questions than they answered.

Still, there was some very interesting stuff. Venat's discussion of Hydaelyn and of becoming her heart is a blow against my theory that Hydaelyn is not a primal in the same way that Zodiark is - but not a fatal one. It's still possible that Hydaelyn served to grant agency to the will of the star, while Zodiark was created to supplant it.

The bit about Elidibus being the heart of Zodiark was very, very interesting, and goes a long way toward explaining why he has a special place in the Ascian hierarchy. If they're Tempered to Zodiark, obviously they can't directly oppose Zodiark's heart!

Interesting that we can apparently call upon Bismarck at will, and that he seems to be almost puppyishly eager to help. Doubtless, that's a resource we'll continually forget about at times where it could really come in handy. XD

Still don't really have any idea what's going on with that white-robed guy talking with Zenos. Folks have postulated Asahi. Sure, why not?

And Elidibert's plan to create a ton of Warriors of Light? I think it's evident that he'll be somehow turning them against us - or, perhaps, we'll become aware that their actions are stirring up the Flood of Light again, and it will be US that turns against THEM. That'd be a pretty dark angle to take, though, and while we may wear the mantle of Warrior of Darkness, the WoL really isn't very dark. Like, at all.

All in all much more satisfied with this batch than the 5.1 MSQ!

Ruby Weapon:

Bit annoyed with how easily Gaius's "family" turned their backs on him. Gaius, whatever his crimes, whatever his faults is EXTREMELY stubborn, loyal, and devoted to his cause. His "children", if they know him at all, really ought to know that for someone like him to turn his back on Garlemald, it's time to ask some serious questions. Not just stalk off all butthurt that daddy abandoned them. In fairness to them, I suppose, he WAS standing as a comrade-in-arms to the one who just killed their sister - but that death was in the combat of warfare, in a sortie initiated by their sister no less. It wasn't like the WoL cornered her in a back alley or something.

It really felt like drama for drama's sake, and not very organic at all.

The fight with Ruby Weapon and the Evangelionesque emergence of Nael was pretty darned cool, to be sure. I wonder how much the family of pilots know about what happened to their sister, beyond the fact that the WoL killed her...

Eden:

Ugh, this storyline feels so poorly written. There just wasn't enough time to properly build up the Romantic Two-Girl Friendship angle they seem to be gunning for between Ryne and Gaia. It doesn't help that, to me at least, Gaia looks MUCH older than Ryne. I'd have pegged her as eighteen or older, while Ryne looks to be between twelve and fourteen.

Then there was Ryne's hilariously bad idea to be a host for Shiva. I mean, the fight we got out of all that was wonderful, but the contrived explanation we got (she wants to practice wielding aether to earn Eden's respect? Or something?) felt really inadequate for the kind of risks she'd be taking. I'd have been a lot more comfortable with it, if Ryne had somehow been transformed into Shiva unexpectedly. Like maybe some accident throws her onto the battlefield just as we're summoning Shiva, and she got caught up in it. Or something. I really enjoyed the interplay of Ryne as Shiva and Ryne as Oracle throughout the fight, and the observation that Ice is the element closest to Light was an interesting one. (I suppose Lightning would be closest to Darkness, given their respective places in the Elemental Wheel? Ironic, if so, considering that Lightning is notable for being extremely bright. Definitely has the chaos angle down, though!)

I was also kind of astonished that we finished the restoration project in this patch. All six elements have been unsealed, and the slow restoration of the world is underway. Mission accomplished! I guess the last tier of the raid is going to focus exclusively on Gaia in her role as Oracle of Darkness?

Neir:

I was happy to see some intermission quests, given how many questions the 5.1 Neir story opened up, and how few they answered - but none were answered here, either, really. Just, yep, the Dwarf siblings are still working on the problem, and whoops, they need to take a break to help out with the carnival. Basically just filler. Oh, well!

About MSQ ending

I do have to say that I really loved the little bit in our sleeping room. Not only being able to choose who to talk to (and see the other options later) but to have them react and especially for them to come to the WoL knowing the story and how dear Ardbert is to us.

The anger all of them feel at Ardberts body being taken and how they know that it affects us. Really the WoL is very pissed of by Elidibus and I laughed at the option that she wished to have punshed him.

Its nice to see that our WoL made friends with people other than the scions and that they do come, wanting to hear the story directly from us and notice how hard it hit us. (And doing their own individual action and words to cheer us up) Nice way to tie such NPCs into the story. More of that SE!

About the beast tribe

I already love this little guys but I am shocked how young they die. Only 20 years to live, yet they seem to still enjoy their lifes.

I loved the options in the MSQ, yet I dislike it here. Why do we already have to choose? Why are we not allowed to see the barely readable stone before we decide? Why cant we just say: Well just tell your future generations the truth that you simply dont know how it all started and then tell how it went on. Or wait until you have more stones thus a better chance to see if it was a peaceful life or not..they try to teach us the lesson of getting the past as neutral as possible and yet instead of letting us react that way they still force us into creating a narative that might simply be wrong..

Originally Posted by Crushnight

So now having done it all.

Msq:

Gotta love Vanet was added so the God in ffxii who wanted history in the hands of man is the name given to the heart of Hydelyn who people have wanted destroyed and now I actually side with them because yes she does go and grab whomever she can who awakens to the echo. Also little bit frightening she can either cause the starshower through illusion or make it actually happen.

She may not be evil but her purpose seems to have been to keep darkness in check and she has a wide reach and always seeking.

I mean all she does is awake the echo in some of them. Which seeing how she needs WoLs to fight the Ascians is imo necessary. Also until we get a 100% confirmation that she tempers people I still doubt that. We have heard about many more echo users, some of them not even fighting for her or doing good stuff which would make no sense if Hydealyn wants them as their soldiers. People seemingly still have a choice and just because your echo awakes also does not make you a WoL. You still need to prove yourself so all she does is use the star shower to hopefully awake some new people that maybe become WoLs somewhere and are willing to fight. I mean we had like three people on the source with her blessing, one of them us, but lots more echo users.

As we know WoLs only appear around the time of a new calamity so I doubt that she is always searching or activating peoples echo. Otherwise a lot more would be talking about random star showers happening all the time.

Could she be bad? Of course that can always happen. Could she still have tempered us? Of course she could. But right now I doubt any of that.

Originally Posted by Alleo

Could she be bad? Of course that can always happen. Could she still have tempered us? Of course she could. But right now I doubt any of that.

In alignment with this...

I think the main evidence to support your doubt is the whole narrative arc involving Minfilia and the Word of the Mother that comes to a head in Shadowbringers. Given that Minfilia is portrayed as being most in-tune with Hydaelyn's will and she is acting as Hydaelyn's voice, it'd take quite a twist to turn around and say that at least Minfilia's underlying intentions in saving the first and trusting her power to Ryne are bad/evil. Now, it's certainly the case that the means used by Hydaelyn has undesirable consequences, and the 14th convocation member may have been justified in not wanting to take either side at first (presumably since they were seeking a third way). But given just the two options on the table, I don't think we can really end up at a "both sides are equally bad" conclusion after all that's happened. Perhaps a "lesser of two evils" at best.


Regarding tempering... I mean, let's say for the sake of argument that all the people "force-fed" the echo are now "tempered" by Hydaelyn, such that it is. The effect of said tempering seems to be that they want to help others, but are otherwise in full control of their faculties. (Most of the people force-fed the echo at the Crystarium were convinced to keep their jobs for now, and the ones who left were already on that path anyway from what we saw before.) So... at that point what is even the point of calling it tempering, even if that's technically what it is? You have the "try to be good unto others and stand up to evil" disease? I mean, I suppose side-effects can include the committing of heroic deeds with the risks of unintended consequences and injury up to and including death... but all the examples we have clearly know the risks and try to weigh the consequences as best as they can. The difference between that and free will/self-determination are almost semantics. (Based on what we know about reincarnation, you're arguably more likely to be influenced by the soul you inherit or the aether that quickens you.)

Of course, if you're looking at it from the Ascian perspective it's bad, because the effect of "Hydaelyn's tempering" (again, for the sake of argument) makes sundered life more able to resist the Team Zodiark plan (to sacrifice the lives newly-born to bring back the Amaurotines). This sort of "pesky and insatiable desire to do good" is thwarting (or at least long-delaying) their plans to return the world to what they feel is its rightful state, but that's only because they considered sundered life to basically be a pitiable devolution that should be put out of its misery (so their souls can be as originally intended). The fact Hydaelyn uses the meteor shower as a trigger obviously will rub the Ascians the wrong way, because to them too that's what it's all about.

At the end of the day, assuming it is tempering, what matters seems to be the primal's underlying goal/desire. Because Hydaelyn's primary goal/desire appears to be to ensure the stability of sundered lives (and prevent them from being sacrificed to Zodiark), the net effect can generally be said to be beneficial to sundered life's survival/stability. (When evil threatens, heroes rise up, because otherwise the Ascians win.) So long as we remain on "Team Sundered Life" (as opposed to "Team Rejoining") we kind of have to side with that, at least for lack of a better option. The fact that Elidibus appears to be abusing that here for nefarious purposes is less a problem with Hydaelyn herself than it is a problem with those manipulating Hydaelyn -- but because Hydaelyn caused the sundering to start with, Elidibus considers her the problem from start to end.


All that being said... I do wonder if, for Elidibus's purposes, the line between "echo user" and "Warrior of Light" is not as firm. If we end up getting killed at the hands of "not-technically Warriors of Light yet" I don't think he'll be inconvenienced by the distinction. They can still progress towards earning their crystals of light after we're out of the picture and still tip the world to light without us there to stop them. Of course, how he's going to turn them (assuming that's still the plan) is the real question.

Edit: In reconsidering my earlier theory...

In the end, maybe the way to earn the scorn of all the new WoL candidates is much simpler: kill "Ardbert." (Just his Artbert form I assume would be the plan - obviously Elidibus would be planning to get away.) That would definitely make us the "bad guy," at least on the surface, and would make Ardbert a weird sort of martyr (because all he was visibly telling people was to do good and help their fellow person, and he helped awaken them to the echo). But if that's really Elidibus's grand plan, it's hard to think that'd be enough to convince all these "WoL wannabes" to go so far as to kill us ("death at the hands of warriors of light"). In the grand scheme of all that's happened, he's still a recent arrival and hard to see that he'd have that much sway compared to all we've done. Plus, it's not like he went out of his way to announce himself to us either; we just figured it out by his poor performance.
That's why I originally thought an outward "calamity" ostensibly caused by us would be more likely to force things to a head, but it's quite valid that maybe there's not enough time to stage that right now (and the closing scene of 5.2 is clearly trying to make this "personal").

Maybe the whole moral of the story is that Elidibus is overestimating himself and underestimating us (despite how many Ascians we've killed), and that will be the key to his downfall as well, but seems sort of a sad way to go for someone apparently so key to the whole thing. (How did that line go? "I thought you were supposed to be good at this..." I guess we did beat him once already in Zenos' body, though, so maybe he isn't...)