5.0 WAR is a disappointment

[Lucy_Pyre]

-a bunch of lunacy-

>"NF is not used as MT?"
I quite literally never said that, so you might wanna stop straight out lying.

APM and CPM can be used for the exact same thing, and the game we're talking about is an MMO, so again, arguing irrelevant semantics just to argue irrelevant semantics.

As to the rest of the nonsense you spouted, much of which you clearly don't even understand, I honestly can't even believe I have to explain this stuff, but I will. Thing is though, since you want to bring up the whole "WAR isn't popular because everyone wants it changed" strawman, here's something that proves that to be a fallacy and that those two statements have no correlation. People are (seemingly) very vocal about wanting a rework to DRK, yet that is still the second most popular tank by an extremely significant margin. It's almost as if possibly, just possibly, WAR isn't as popular because axes and the general "berserker" thematic just isn't a very popular aesthetic, and this would also conveniently be an accurate assessment. I will repeat as I have said many times in this thread, and seemingly will continue to have to do so; if you don't like the job then feel free to not play it. That is exactly why we have four different tanks to play, because there's one for everyone's preferred playstyle. Funny how that works, huh?

[EpicOverlord85]

>"NF is not used as MT?"
I quite literally never said that, so you might wanna stop straight out lying.

APM and CPM can be used for the exact same thing, and the game we're talking about is an MMO, so again, arguing irrelevant semantics just to argue irrelevant semantics.

As to the rest of the nonsense you spouted, much of which you clearly don't even understand, I honestly can't even believe I have to explain this stuff, but I will. Thing is though, since you want to bring up the whole "WAR isn't popular because everyone wants it changed" strawman, here's something that proves that to be a fallacy and that those two statements have no correlation. People are (seemingly) very vocal about wanting a rework to DRK, yet that is still the second most popular tank by an extremely significant margin. It's almost as if possibly, just possibly, WAR isn't as popular because axes and the general "berserker" thematic just isn't a very popular aesthetic, and this would also conveniently be an accurate assessment. I will repeat as I have said many times in this thread, and seemingly will continue to have to do so; if you don't like the job then feel free to not play it. That is exactly why we have four different tanks to play, because there's one for everyone's preferred playstyle. Funny how that works, huh?

In all fairness one reason why DRK is so popular is due to it being the story job this time round. Reminds me of back in HW when everyone and their grandmother was a DRG.

[Lucy_Pyre]

In all fairness one reason why DRK is so popular is due to it being the story job this time round. Reminds me of back in HW when everyone and their grandmother was a DRG.

That has exactly zero correlation to why the job is so popular in EX/savage/ultimate.

[shao32]

the job is popular on hard content due TBN and only TBN, on TEA rules for dark mind too and thats it, for all the sprouds it's for marketing.

[ArianeEwah]

>"NF is not used as MT?"
I quite literally never said that, so you might wanna stop straight out lying.

You did:

Nascent being a "MT skill" primarily is just, entirely wrong.

Whether NF was intended to be support skill - just as whiskeybravo explained very well - it's mostly used over RI. It is then not entirely wrong, may it be primarily or secondary, it's just an universal tank skill that can be used for both cases.

Your posts just scream: "hey, I just started tanks this expansion, they are perfectly fine as they are"...
Well, guess what, there were tanks before you, there are people that have experienced tanks in a game you had to maintain aggro, optimize damage, maybe manage TP, or even sacrifice damage for survivability. Now tanks don't have actual stances, so we lost the ability to stance dance, maintaining aggro is done by AA'ing, there is no "damage optimizing", and we lost a resource to manage. Even when the other tanks just hated stance dancing, it was a special feature to WAR, especially since Inner Beast and FC were completely different skills. IB had lower damage, but you gained mitigation and self heal, whereas FC was/is your nuke skill. Losing these aspects almost both skills is hard enough, as IB is just damage now (and not even high damage), and FC got nerfed for the sake of "spaming" it. WAR also was a "must-have" for every party due to their party utility with slashing debuffing, you felt important - gone. The job got taken away almost all the aspects that made warrior the warrior, but gains so few - or even less actually - it simply loses its identity. The self-healing is forever lost below 76 and cramped up into a single ability - NF. We also lost the unique tank stance that increased HP instead of simply providing passive mitigation. Now it's just a passive trait we don't have to manage either.

Too many design choices have removed the active parts of tanking, and moved them to passives. What's left is the rotation. And 80% of our rotation barely affects the actual performance, the dps mechanics are just not exciting nor are they unsatisfacory. The rotation is so "stark and stiff" there is no room for GCD variation, or optimizing.
Maybe, not everything from pre-ShB was justified, maybe it was necessary to step down on some choices to balance all tanks. Yet, the choices made to tanks led to the most passive tank play possible, compared to pre-ShB tanks are barely actively tanking.

It wouldn't be as bad when there was at least diversity - and that's where I take your last statement apart. Are there really four different tanks, when at least 2 have such an identical gameplay? DRK is WAR copy-paste with an edgy outer appearance. Or in other words: we got 1 job for the prize of 2 jobs. They may have their own little gimmicks, but at the core they are the same disguised with make-up. It's not hard to see where most manpower went in designing tanks (or jobs in general). GNB probably has the most unique dps rotation of all tanks, DRK and WAR got the short straw here.

Tanks in general got simplified while WAR gained (almost) nothing new, or just old stuff in new form, and probably lost the most "action".

...could be worse tho, tank dps rotation could've been like healer dps rotation, lol.

[Lucy_Pyre]

You did

You.... you don't even understand basic English, do you? Because where you claim I said that, it is NEVER SAID IN THE SLIGHTEST. Seriously, do you understand English? I said that Nascent was not "only primarily a main tank skill" which MEANS that if is used as both MT and OT and is useful for BOTH roles and purposes. Christ, I'm not even going to take the time to read anything else you've said at this point because this point alone has me beyond the point of being able to take you seriously. Learn basic reading comprehension before you quote me again.

[Shurrikhan]

You did [say that "Nascent is not used as MT"]:

Except, she didn't. Observe:

Nascent being a "MT skill" primarily is just, entirely wrong.

@ArianeEwah

Saying that Nascent's purpose is not primarily as an MT skill is not the same thing as saying that it is not used while MT, or even that it's in no way an MT skill.

The purpose of my extra long mouse pad is not primarily to be a wrist rest when using my keyboard, yet it works fine as such alongside its main purpose.

Now, I'll agree with you here that there's no point in calling Nascent an OT skill in particular -- except perhaps in that its highest throughput is achieved only when both you can maximize your healing and your target can maximize the mitigation it provides through high damage intake over the duration -- but you've completely twisted her words here.

[ArianeEwah]

[...]but you've completely twisted her words here.

Well, this was happening about half my posts, too. I also never said that NF was primarily an MT skill. I just stated it is primarily used before RI. That we didn't really gain an OT skill in particular, rather than RI mostly being replaced by NF, and RI becoming very situational. So getting my words twisted, and then calling it wrong doesn't sit right either.

Maybe I should have included that in my previous post for further clarification...

[whiskeybravo]

Tanks in general got simplified while WAR gained (almost) nothing new, or just old stuff in new form, and probably lost the most "action".

I certainly can't disagree with the general assessment. My focus is mainly that it's hard to trust SE to fix all WARs woes with a re-work. MCH re-work didn't really fix the underlying ping-related issues. SMN and SCH were borderline abandoned. Hell our caster raided on SMN from HW all through SB but hasn't even wanted to play it since ShB released. Healers in general had it pretty rough and have had to have some adjustments since their redesign. And again there's still a lot of mixed commotion over DRK. So it's just very hard to believe any sort of WAR "re-work" is going to accomplish what we all want it to accomplish. They've definitely had to put effort into fixing their fixes. So I'd rather just take a step-by-step approach, make some minor adjustments to specific functionality here and there rather then tear it all down and build again. Because there's very little to indicate that a total rebuild would be worth pursuing.

NF for example, I just feel like if they take away the target requirement it defeats the purpose of it being a support-oriented ability. If it's primarily used as a MT cooldown already, it's only going to be used as a MT cooldown if the restriction is removed. The notion of disconnecting it from a target requirement implies as much, it certainly wouldn't see more use as a support ability if it were removed. I like the idea of NF as a support ability, it's unique with it's damage reduction + healing. The main problem is that it's so much more powerful as a self cooldown (under certain conditions) that it ends up undermining the support aspect of it.

But I really don't know the best way to fix it. A few ideas I've tossed around in my head would be either baking self-heal into our beast gauge moves, or perhaps something like basing NF's heal on a flat potency per action instead of scaling with damage (this would at least free it up to be used in any part of the rotation instead of needing to line up with burst). Separating it from RI and making RI either self or party cast might work too, but this feels kinda basic like PLD Intervention. Not sure, but the point being there's a lot things we can discuss without having to tear it all down.

[BluexBird]

If feel that making NF castable on self, as well as on a party member, would solve everything and make it a proper ability. Because the way it is now, it's utter trash for a level 70+ ability.

If you're main tanking, it would be used as a sustain tool to help the healer. From my tests, you get about 60k healing if you manage to land 2 Fell Cleaves + 1 Inner Chaos during its window. That's more than Equilibrium when it crits, so it's quite powerful. It certainly helps your healers out in a lot of situations.

When you aren't the main tank though, the self-healing aspect on yourself becomes useless. Why bother healing yourself? Outside of specific mechanics, you will only be getting hit by AoE damage, which the rest of the party is also getting hit by. Meaning healers will be having to heal everyone by the same amount. You healing yourself won't make a difference. This makes me treat NF as a cooldown to be used on the main tank during tank busters, especially in certain situations where I can tell the healers are struggling. But that's just 10% damage reduction. 10%...

Our level 76 is not only a utility, but it is ONLY a utility during raids and dungeons. Not only that, but if everyone dies, it suddenly becomes useless. This is the main issue I have with this. A heal of 60k won't make you invincible. That's like 3-4 autoattacks from the boss. Give me a break with that bullshit argument. Plus even if you use it off of cooldown, you won't have enough beast gauge to get the same 60k heal every time, so realistically on average it's more of a 50k heal.

Bottom line is, there is absolutely no reason to keep NF from being able to be used on yourself.

As it stands now:
If you're MT, you use it on someone else to heal yourself.
If you're OT, you use it on the MT to help with mitigation.

Now imagine if you can cast it on yourself. What would change?!
If you're MT, you just use it on yourself to heal yourself.
If you're OT, you still put it on the MT to help with mitigation. What are you gonna put it on yourself for? You're probably already full HP and any extra AoE damage will be handled by healers!

There is just literally no valid arguments against this. It wouldn't change the way the ability is used. It wouldn't make Warriors invincible during fights. It would just be a wonderful QoL change that every Warrior player would appreciate.