It's time (Option to Hide other players Glamour)

[Penthea]

I wish she didn't. It's awful. Why has nobody given the kid some actual armor? Light armor even?? Some pants???? Better than fighting in what's basically a nightgown...

Do not underestimate the strength of plot armour.

[Sairys]

I wish she didn't. It's awful. Why has nobody given the kid some actual armor? Light armor even?? Some pants???? Better than fighting in what's basically a nightgown...

Because the devs decided that in their world that's appropriate gear for someone to wear into battle.

Likely because this is a world where glamours exist, she could be armoured to the teeth but she can still wear a cute dress.

Isn't the Crystal Exarch another example, from the look of things he wears his regular robes regardless of whether or not you have him as a PLD, WHM, or BLM.

[RognarB]

I'm more boggled by the implication that someone who objects to someone else's appearance can only restrain themself from commenting on it by removing it from their sight - which gives them exactly what they want, at the expense of what the other person might want.

That's not tolerance.

If the other person want to impose their appearance on someone despite said someone being uncomfortable with it, would it not be harassment? I doubt someone dressed as a south american ghost, complete with a white pointy hat, would make many friends in limsa or anywhere else in public. What you're asking is for the uncomfortable player to suck it up and endure something that might deeply offends them coming from someone that might be dressing in such a way that purposefully causes distress the uncomfortable player. Endure or walk away. Said player might even lash out from being cornered and at that point everybody's time is ruined.
If the player instead had a tool to shield themselves from offense, like how blacklists work, they would be able to tolerate better what offending them.

Ideally nobody would be offended by anything but alas its not the world we live in. Us humans are wired differently from one another and the best we can do is not exclude others but tolerate each other.

[Avidria]

Do not underestimate the strength of plot armour.

Touché.

Because the devs decided that in their world that's appropriate gear for someone to wear into battle.

Likely because this is a world where glamours exist, she could be armoured to the teeth but she can still wear a cute dress.

Isn't the Crystal Exarch another example, from the look of things he wears his regular robes regardless of whether or not you have him as a PLD, WHM, or BLM.

I mean, fair enough, though my post really wasn't all that serious :P I actually hate it because it's a white nightgown and the thought of the cool zero protection that would provide on top of the cool zero protection from STAINS makes my nose wanna scrunch all up. Like. Seriously. At least the Exarch could have some chainmail hidden under there or something, for all we know. Ryne's just wearing a scrap of white cloth. <.< Probably to make her look more like the legends or somesuch but god I hate "Big" Minfilia's outfit too lol

[Sairys]

If the other person want to impose their appearance on someone despite said someone being uncomfortable with it, would it not be harassment? I doubt someone dressed as a south american ghost, complete with a white pointy hat, would make many friends in limsa or anywhere else in public. What you're asking is for the uncomfortable player to suck it up and endure something that might deeply offends them coming from someone that might be dressing in such a way that purposefully causes distress the uncomfortable player. Endure or walk away. Said player might even lash out from being cornered and at that point everybody's time is ruined.
If the player instead had a tool to shield themselves from offense, like how blacklists work, they would be able to tolerate better what offending them.

Ideally nobody would be offended by anything but alas its not the world we live in. Us humans are wired differently from one another and the best we can do is not exclude others but tolerate each other.

They're not imposing their appearance on you, they are just existing while wearing an outfit that they like. It's also not harassment, because again, they're just standing there existing.

The only person creating the negativity in that situation is the individual who wants to be able to impose their views on what appropriate clothing is on to other rather than accepting everyone has the freedom to wear whatever they like from the selection provided. The harassment is when someone makes the choice to attack others who have chosen to wear an option the game has provided for them because they don't agree with that option.

[Sairys]

Touché.


I mean, fair enough, though my post really wasn't all that serious :P I actually hate it because it's a white nightgown and the thought of the cool zero protection that would provide on top of the cool zero protection from STAINS makes my nose wanna scrunch all up. Like. Seriously. At least the Exarch could have some chainmail hidden under there or something, for all we know. Ryne's just wearing a scrap of white cloth. <.< Probably to make her look more like the legends or somesuch but god I hate "Big" Minfilia's outfit too lol

I mean, yeah, but the wonders of illusion magic!

The canon to me reads that Ryne could actually be wearing something like the scaevan scouting gear or the dungeon sets from the trust dungeons, she's just decided she wants to use glamours to look like she's wearing that outfit heh.

[RognarB]

They're not imposing their appearance on you, they are just existing while wearing an outfit that they like. It's also not harassment, because again, they're just standing there existing.

Someone was recently given a suspension for existing in a public place while using a spell and it was considered harassment.

The only person creating the negativity in that situation is the individual who wants to be able to impose their views on what appropriate clothing is on to other rather than accepting everyone has the freedom to wear whatever they like from the selection provided. The harassment is when someone makes the choice to attack others who have chosen to wear an option the game has provided for them because they don't agree with that option.

What you see as someone imposing their views could be someone feeling uncomfortable by being exposed to something that deeply offends them. By that same logic, someone dressed as a klanman could just be existing while other people shouting at them would create negativity by imposing whats acceptable or not to wear. Someone could see the klanman suit and feel so distressed they would lash out and you'd consider them harassers because they "made the choice" to attack others who have chosen to wear an option the game has provided for them because they don't agree with that option.

Shielding yourself from someone else's glamour can only facillitate co-existence amongst people with possibly wildly different natures. It would be selfish and intolerant to demand that others bypass their identity on the same level that it would be intolerant to demand that others "pray the gay away".

[Iscah]

If the other person want to impose their appearance on someone despite said someone being uncomfortable with it, would it not be harassment? I doubt someone dressed as a south american ghost, complete with a white pointy hat, would make many friends in limsa or anywhere else in public.

On the specific costume, if deliberate (which it probably would be), there are other rules that would come under besides direct harassment.

in any case you've flipped your example around and are trying to claim it's the same thing.

The first time, you were talking about giving someone the ability to turn off an "offending man in a dress" that they are personally unable to tolerate. Not because they are trying to harass the person but simply because they are wearing a dress, and somehow (according to you) if the other person "lashed out" it would be the fault of the so-called offender and not the one expressing bigotry.

Now you're talking about someone dressing up as a commonly-identified racial hate group (which, without actually checking, I would assume is prohibited in the TOS, if not actually illegal) and equating it to the same situation, which it is not. It should not be "quietly turned off" and a moderator would probably tell them to change their outfit even if the player claimed they had no idea it was offensive - whereas they wouldn't just because a male character has equipped a normal piece of clothing that their character is able to equip.

"Tolerating each other" does not involve literally refusing to tolerate the fact that someone want to dress in a way you disapprove of. It's putting aside that opinion and accepting that the person can dress like that if they want - and that they want others to see them like that. And putting up barriers where each person can see the world as they like it might create an "illusion of harmony", but really everyone is living in their own little box and it would create a really awful world where you can never be sure how you're coming across to others. It would be an uneasy feeling all the time - maybe it wouldn't bother you personally but it would certainly bother me.

Someone was recently given a suspension for existing in a public place while using a spell and it was considered harassment.

We weren't there and we don't have the context for that ruling. Did people ask him to stop? Did he say anything to others?

[Zabuza]

On the specific costume, if deliberate (which it probably would be), there are other rules that would come under besides direct harassment.

in any case you've flipped your example around and are trying to claim it's the same thing.

The first time, you were talking about giving someone the ability to turn off an "offending man in a dress" that they are personally unable to tolerate. Not because they are trying to harass the person but simply because they are wearing a dress, and somehow (according to you) if the other person "lashed out" it would be the fault of the so-called offender and not the one expressing bigotry.

Now you're talking about someone dressing up as a commonly-identified racial hate group (which, without actually checking, I would assume is prohibited in the TOS, if not actually illegal) and equating it to the same situation, which it is not. It should not be "quietly turned off" and a moderator would probably tell them to change their outfit even if the player claimed they had no idea it was offensive - whereas they wouldn't just because a male character has equipped a normal piece of clothing that their character is able to equip.

So you're okay with people dressing in whatever they like as long as it is not offensive to you. You're not being completely consistent in the 'people can wear whatever they want' argument, because obviously you have exceptions. But we're not allowed to have those exceptions, right?

[RognarB]

"Tolerating each other" does not involve literally refusing to tolerate the fact that someone want to dress in a way you disapprove of. It's putting aside that opinion and accepting that the person can dress like that if they want - and that they want others to see them like that. And putting up barriers where each person can see the world as they like it might create an "illusion of harmony"

The illusion of harmony is harmony. If it allows the most amount of people to co-exist peacefully even tho they may hold disdain for each other in private, then we've made a significant progress from all out war or conflict and harassment.
Thats tolerance.
Given that the only alternative from tolerance is population cleansing, its a pretty good thing and perhaps the best we can do.

but really everyone is living in their own little box and it would create a really awful world where you can never be sure how you're coming across to others.

We do live in a really awful world where you can never be sure how you're coming across to others. It sucks but even behind smiles and soft words, people are constantly judging each other wether they want it on not. Its human nature. The best we can hope for is to co-exist despite that fact and shield our eyes from things that offends us if thats the cost of co-existence, which is the option I'm arguing for.