The problem with the mentor system

[SoranRigel]

There is a steady trend in this topic: those, who advocate for maintaining a mentor system, discount the experience of others, use dirty discussion techniques like “your evidence is not evidence” or call opponents, who talk about their real negative experiences, a “crying wolves”.

All this suggests one thing: the system of toxic "elite", named "mentors", should be immediately canceled. There are many who can help others, and a crown is not needed for this. Thanks to those experienced players who helped me more than once, explained and supported me. Many of them, being "mentors" by rank, are afraid to wear the crown, because it has become a symbol of toxicity. There are many reference resources, including this forum and youtube.

We do not need people who assert their right to humiliate others for the sake of the crown, and shut our mouths.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

There is a steady trend in this topic: those, who advocate for maintaining a mentor system, discount the experience of others, use dirty discussion techniques like “your evidence is not evidence” or call opponents, who talk about their real negative experiences, a “crying wolves”.

All this suggests one thing: the system of toxic "elite", named "mentors", should be immediately canceled. There are many who can help others, and a crown is not needed for this. Thanks to those experienced players who helped me more than once, explained and supported me. Many of them, being "mentors" by rank, are afraid to wear the crown, because it has become a symbol of toxicity. There are many reference resources, including this forum and youtube.

We do not need people who assert their right to humiliate others for the sake of the crown, and shut our mouths.

At the same time, you are discounting the experiences of others. It's a vicious circle.

[Miste]

There is a steady trend in this topic: those, who advocate for maintaining a mentor system, discount the experience of others, using dirty discussion techniques like “your evidence is not evidence” or calling opponents, who talk about their real negative experiences, a “crying wolves”.

All this suggests one thing: the system of toxic "elite", named "mentors", should be immediately canceled. There are many who can help others, and a crown is not needed for this. Thanks to those experienced players who helped me more than once, explained and supported me. Many of them, being "mentors" by rank, are afraid to wear the crown, because it has become a symbol of toxicity. There are many reference resources, including this forum and youtube.

We do not need people who assert their right to humiliate others for the sake of the crown and shut our mouths.

Pointing out that your evidence is not evidence is not toxic or "dirty discussion techniques"....it is just pointing out the flaw in your reasoning for deleting the system over the few people who have negative experiences when it may be working as intended. Sure there are "bad" mentors, but that doesn't erase all the good mentors using the system to help new players in content and in the NN. It doesn't erase all the good help newbies have obtained via mentors/NN.

When people say "I had a negative experience with the mentor system so it should be deleted."

It is not "dirty discussion techniques" or "toxic" to ask: "How do you know the mentor system overall is more negative than positive and should be removed?"

How do you know?

One person's (or a few people's) experiences is not the whole picture. It's kind of like petitioning the government to delete an entire highway because you had a run in with a jerk who was drunk driving and crashed into you, when thousands of people use that same highway everyday with no issue. The other driver being drunk and crashing into you has nothing to do with the highway simply existing. They were drunk, and a jerk. You call the police and get them arrested.

Sorta like how bad mentors don't have anything to do with the system existing. If a player is a jerk they will still be a jerk with or without the system in place. The only thing you can do is just call the GM and report them for harassment if that is what they are doing.

It does suck people have negative experiences, but people have negative experiences in this game everyday with any player. Even you said it: you don't need a mentor crown to mentor....well you also don't need a mentor crown to be a jerk. Anyone who is a jerk or humiliating others will still do it even if the mentor system no longer exists. So in the end, what was accomplished by removing it?

If changing the crown to a different icon would change anything then sure SE could try it. I just personally do not believe that a pixel image of a crown turns normally nice players into "toxic elite jerks". Like that is some serious Jekyll and Hyde that a tiny image of a crown suddenly turns a good person into an evil one whenever they wear it. It sounds crazy tbh.

Anyone who thinks the crown makes them superior to others is delusional at best anyway and not worth your time, getting mentor status requires little effort and is not difficult to obtain.

[RajNish]

It's kind of like petitioning the government to delete an entire highway because you had a run in with a jerk who was drunk driving and crashed into you, when thousands of people use that same highway everyday with no issue. The other driver being drunk and crashing into you has nothing to do with the highway simply existing. They were drunk, and a jerk. You call the police and get them arrested.

Not certainly in that way. Speaking in your own language of metaphors, it’s as if accidents caused by unscrupulous drivers occurred all the time on a broken section of the road, so we don’t complain about unscrupulous drivers, we give examples and ask that the section of the road be corrected so that it was no longer possible to break the rules. Because only police reports, with such a system, do not fix anything.

The proposal of the OP to change the icon seems very reasonable to me, because there will remain people whom the newcomer will be able to ask for help, but this will not be visually related to prestige or elitism. It would also be good if we had a really working blacklist, so as not to meet these people in roulette.

You say that this is not the fault of the mentors, but there are people who cast a shadow on the mentors, and there are a lot of them. That is why many of the respectable mentors take off the crown. In this way, two problems could be solved at once. People who have a mentor status just for the crown will leave. People who want to help others will be able to act with a icon that is not associated with power and prestige.

[Miste]

Not certainly in that way. Speaking in your own language of metaphors, it’s as if accidents caused by unscrupulous drivers occurred all the time on a broken section of the road, so we don’t complain about unscrupulous drivers, we give examples and ask that the section of the road be corrected so that it was no longer possible to break the rules. Because only police reports, with such a system, do not fix anything.

My metaphor wasn't talking about possible "fixes" or "improvements" to said road. If you reread my post you'll see I was specifically talking about people who want to outright delete the road entirely. So your metaphor isn't really relevant to mine.

Even with your metaphor, you still have to prove the road is completely broken, unusable, or that the majority has a negative experience first to actually get people on your side to rally to fix said road. You know how governments are, you have to get the government think it is worth it to spend the time/money to fix it.

What if the majority of people think the road is fine? You have to find this data out to make logical reasoning. If 0.03% think the road needs fixing, but the other 99.97% think it is fine as it is....then what? This is just an example though, obviously we would need way more information on the good side of the road first.

Hence the whole issue people have with "I had a negative experience, delete it."

The proposal of the OP to change the icon seems very reasonable to me, because there will remain people whom the newcomer will be able to ask for help, but this will not be visually related to prestige or elitism. It would also be good if we had a really working blacklist, so as not to meet these people in roulette.

Make sure you read my previous post. I have no issue with the OPs suggestion to change the icon. I actually said they could change the icon if it will help, I personally don't care what icon they use. I just personally don't think it would change anything, but that is my opinion.

[RajNish]

Even with your metaphor, you still have to prove the road is completely broken, unusable

Not necessary. It can be quite used, and not completely broken. But there may be potholes on it, because of which people drive off onto the sidewalk. I see these potholes, and I say - there is a pothole, it’s simple, and I don’t need statistics, who and how many times collided or hit the sidewalk.

Make sure you read my previous post. I have no issue with the OPs suggestion to change the icon. I actually said they could change the icon if it will help, I personally don't care what icon they use. I just personally don't think it would change anything, but that is my opinion.

When humanity moved from manufactory to factory, approximately the same thing happened. Some broke the machines, others were not sure that it would be any good.

[Miste]

Not necessary. It can be quite used, and not completely broken. But there may be potholes on it, because of which people drive off onto the sidewalk. I see these potholes, and I say - there is a pothole, it’s simple, and I don’t need statistics, who and how many times collided or hit the sidewalk.

This no longer works as a metaphor for the mentor system. You are implying that an unavoidable pothole exists that every single driver will hit so they "have" to fix it, no statistics needed because "everyone hits the pothole".

A pothole that every driver hits can't be compared to negative mentor experiences because you are implying everyone driving on the road is impacted by the potholes when you cannot make that claim that every single player playing FFXIV is negatively impacted by the mentor system. You just altered it in a way where it doesn't work anymore.

So yes, you do need statistics to know if the mentor system needs reworking, or to be deleted entirely. You NEED information to find out if the mentor system is overall negative. Otherwise you could be deleting something that actually was helping the majority of people who interacted with it.

[RajNish]

You are implying that an unavoidable pothole exists that every single driver will hit so they "have" to fix it, no statistics needed because "everyone hits the pothole".

Where exactly did I say "everyone"? Where did I say "unavoidable"? Please do not misinterpret my words. I said that the system can and should be changed, in my opinion. You said: "I just personally don't think it would change anything, but that is my opinion". Our points of view diverge. It’s okay, but please do not try to devote me to your religion, because you also do not have information how many reports come to GM’s.

[SoranRigel]

What if the majority of people think the road is fine? You have to find this data out to make logical reasoning. If 0.03% think the road needs fixing, but the other 99.97% think it is fine as it is....then what? This is just an example though, obviously we would need way more information on the good side of the road first.

You will never know from those who left the game due to their collision with toxic mentors what they think about this system.
You will not learn about this in those who for some reason consider toxicity to be a normal style of communication.
And you 'll never know from those who drowned about dolphins that push people into the high seas, instead of pushing them toward the shore.
I hope, analogy is clear?

[MomomiMomi]

You will never know from those who left the game due to their collision with toxic mentors what they think about this system.
You will not learn about this in those who for some reason consider toxicity to be a normal style of communication.
And you 'll never know from those who drowned about dolphins that push people into the high seas, instead of pushing them toward the shore.
I hope, analogy is clear?

I've actually noticed that a lot of the complaints come from people who went into the Novice Network once, saw something negative, and then left, never to return. This results in a skewed view of the NN. They don't know about all the good things that are going on in there because they turned it off and never went back. I've seen these types of people countless times in threads like this one.