FFXIV Devs: Please STOP punishing normal players for others breaking the rules.

[Selova]

In the end the change to markers won't even matter. The modding community will have something superior to combat this ridiculous change. I don't agree with the stance on this change and continuing to combat the community on it isn't going to achieve anything.

[ForteNightshade]

Was said program made by SE? No.

Was said program actively changing data in the game? Yes. (Though only changing waymark positional data. Nothing too serious)

Guess what? That means it's cheating under ToS' guidelines. Which also means using it makes you liable for a ban. Don't like that? Don't use it.

Being against the ToS and cheating are two different things. No one has ever denied it being against the ToS. It's the silly notion moving markers through saved presets constitutes cheating in the same way say, other programs that call out every mechanic or revealing AoE indicating.

Put another way. Mods are against the ToS and are just as liable to get you banned; as is ACT. Neither are cheating. They're simply against the rules.

That's the issue. Unless it is a feature provided by the game, automating game play via third party tool has never been allowed as far as I can tell.

People should have put in a concerted effort to request for this feature rather than going the route of third party tool.

People did. The dev team is notoriously slow about adding features likes this. We still can't glamour outside city states.

This tool also did not automate gameplay, it moved markers based on pre-saves—somethings players did themselves during downtime. It's literally the same thing that's being added in 5.2 except you could do it during combat. The whole automation came from another program that piggybacked off this one and actually did place markers based on what mechanics were going out. The infamous "Trine markings" for Perfect is an example of the latter. And it's likely what caused SE to act.

[Kenky]

Being against the ToS and cheating are two different things. No one has ever denied it being against the ToS. It's the silly notion moving markers through saved presets constitutes cheating in the same way say, other programs that call out every mechanic or revealing AoE indicating.

Put another way. Mods are against the ToS and are just as liable to get you banned; as is ACT. Neither are cheating. They're simply against the rules.

Sorry, but when a computer decides to hold your hand because you can't compete to a degree you're expected to, then it is indeed cheating. To say it's not is like saying athletes who dope up are legit. (Both seen as artificially granting advantage without really earning said advantage).

The fact that ACT is against ToS gives SE every right to punish people that use it (And they now are, funny that!). The difference between ACT and Mods (in some fashion at least) is that ACT takes information from the game and relays it to a 3rd party. The same way that a 3rd party program could (in theory) inject code to rig outcomes. See the issue?

Some mods, while still being against ToS, don't meddle with the coding of the game outside of client-side visuals. That don't affect the server. It's still punishable and plenty of people that have tried to cry victim for being banned because they got caught showing it off don't really have a right to complain.

If you know what you're doing is punishable, yet continue to do it. Why do you get to voice an opinion? You know you're guilty and you're found guilty, so why should you be given time to lie and claim innocence?

[Commander_Justitia]

SE doing an overkill once again.
UcoB nael dives got way more annoying now, punishes people who play it normal way more.
The coming system is unpolished and completely ignores these issues.
Waymark restriction are not needed in casual content including savage. If they want to protect ultimate better from getting easier with third party tools or datamining, they are not doing it with this change.

[SaberMaxwell]

Sorry, but when a computer decides to hold your hand because you can't compete to a degree you're expected to, then it is indeed cheating. To say it's not is like saying athletes who dope up are legit. (Both seen as artificially granting advantage without really earning said advantage).

I don't disagree with this statement at all. I don't think it negates what Forte was saying in the way you think it does though; Forte's statement was that there are degrees of cheating, and having marker presets is not on the same level of cheating as having the machine actively showing invisible AoEs. I think the former should be a feature, and SE came so close to implementing it and outright killing the tool, but my group never used it and instead our SCH did it manually through the fight as needed. I think the latter is an outright betrayal of the spirit of the mechanics.

The fact that ACT is against ToS gives SE every right to punish people that use it (And they now are, funny that!).

Except they're not. Their stance literally has not changed on ACT: use it if you want but don't advertise that you're using it. This is the general playerbase being punished because a subset of a subset decided to push the envelope and all of us losing a valuable feature.

The difference between ACT and Mods (in some fashion at least) is that ACT takes information from the game and relays it to a 3rd party. The same way that a 3rd party program could (in theory) inject code to rig outcomes. See the issue?

Some mods, while still being against ToS, don't meddle with the coding of the game outside of client-side visuals. That don't affect the server. It's still punishable and plenty of people that have tried to cry victim for being banned because they got caught showing it off don't really have a right to complain.

All the more reason for SE to implement a first party solution and stop letting the third parties do as they will. What happened with Paisley is an inevitability of relying on your playerbase to supplement desired features in the game.

That said, again, they haven't changed their stance on ACT. It's in the exact same grayzone that mods are in: don't ask, don't tell.

[QT_Melon]

Does anyone really understand "use at your own risk" anymore? I mean this more in regards to the waymark tool. Even the dev of said tool spoke up and said he agreed when it was first introduced months ago.

[WhyAmIHere]

What would be your alternative? The scorched earth approach was the only truly viable approach, we got two more waymarks, ability to save presets.

Sure a small percentage of the community caused this and the entire community has to deal with the fallout, but realistically, how frequent is this in the average players day to day gameplay?

Not really that much. Oop cant move markers once combat starts.. yea okay because thats the most common thing in the world.. its not. And if in the hardcore content where this is going to be most prevalent this change means people cant clear any more thats more reflective of the players then the system.

The Engels and Final boss of the Nier 24-man Raids. Every time the adds appear there is a truffle shuffle of players unless someone places down an A, B, and C marker to denote which alliance goes where.

If someone instantly pulls, which happens plenty often from my experience, good luck having any order when tanks need to grab adds in those instances.

[QT_Melon]

So they added waymarks and made presets. PVP is also unaffected by the change.

[Deceptus]

Question is how it's implemented (as always) and SE is contradicting itself.

Waymarks can no longer be placed or removed during combat

and

Waymarks can have up to 5 presets

So dynamic battles, which change based on phases, can't change marker places because you're in combat the whole time.

Raid leaders be like:

Alright guys, we've hit phase 2, so don't forget we have to ignore markers 1 and A, Pay attention to marker 2 and B, Markers 3 and C are for the next phase.

Meanwhile the screen is cluttered with useless waymarks because you can't remove them. . .

GG SE, you've over complicated something that doesn't need to be complicated.

[Valorak]

The Engels and Final boss of the Nier 24-man Raids. Every time the adds appear there is a truffle shuffle of players unless someone places down an A, B, and C marker to denote which alliance goes where.

If someone instantly pulls, which happens plenty often from my experience, good luck having any order when tanks need to grab adds in those instances.

Really?

I usually see people fall into place pretty quickly unless there's a ton of new people.

A------C

----B---

It's not really rocket science.