Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

[Deviri]

People tend to forget (as there are a lot of former wow players here) that back in the day on wow, to get into a group you had to link your achieve. If you didnt have it, well sucks to suck but you arent going with that group.

You still have to do that lmao.

[Sated]

Adding my personal confirmation bias to the pile here but: I don't think I've ever seen anyone give job advice in DF who was qualified to do so - meaning they actually knew what they're talking about. Strats sometimes sure, like someone giving a tip on where to tank something or what can be stunned or whatever - that's environmental info that can be useful if something's not working out, and I rarely see anyone upset about mechanic explanations (unless they're tilted from a death/wipe).

But every time I've seen someone try to tell someone how to play their job it's either an embarrassingly transparent attempt to flex or they're trying to save face by shifting the "blame" of some perceived failure from themselves onto someone else.

Basically, the guy telling my level 17 ARC alt that I should be using a level 18 ability in Sastasha has no business giving job advice when his only knowledge of the class seems to be that he "recalls having seen a synced BRD AoE there before, and is frustrated that I'm not".

So I guess I'm just struggling with the assumption that unsolicited advice in dungeons is helpful for anyone but the person giving it (as some kind of catharsis) when there is no guarantee that they know what they're doing any more than the person who they're criticizing.

Players who are actually good will just adjust. Like the DNC who unpartnered my BLM.

[VirusOnline]

I dare someone to say anything about my DPS. I will have them in GM jail so fast their head will spin.

The definition of casual toxicity. I applaud this.
Willing to abuse a system just so your feelings don't get hurt. You aren't being harassed. You dished it, but obviously you can't take.

[Annihilism]

"how do you know how much damage I'm doing"

"what told you my damage output?"

"why do you think my damage was so low? I was doing my rotations just fine."

And other sneaky phrases people say in attempt to make you rat yourself out.

[SturmChurro]

"how do you know how much damage I'm doing"

"what told you my damage output?"

"why do you think my damage was so low? I was doing my rotations just fine."

And other sneaky phrases people say in attempt to make you rat yourself out.

LOL! So true, sometimes when I am in a good mood, I put the fear of God into some of these people by saying some of these things, when they bring up DPS. I don't report anybody, but it's fun to see what happens!

[Penthea]

Maybe not in FFXIV because it's against ToS but in a game like WoW or other MMOs were DPS meters are allowed it happens a lot. Even in WoW's infamous Raid Finder, which is a huge joke, you can find people preaching about DPS.

I've said this many times about WoW but many don't believe me. Some think I exaggerate. I haven't played the game in a few years so maybe the community somehow changed for the better(?), but the last time I played I did encounter it fairly often. Normally it was just some silly mean comments flung about for a few seconds to a few minutes and then nothing really happened. Still unpleasant to watch though. I didn't exactly queue for content to watch people bicker about dps even when things were dying crazy fast.

And of course there were times when it got really bad and progress got delayed for 5+ minutes because a full blown argument started. Usually these ended with someone leaving or the whole group disbanding.

These lengthy delays weren't super frequent for me in WoW, but I did encounter them at least once every month or two. This might seem small, but consider this: I have been playing FFXIV for years now and I can count on one hand how many times I saw that happen in that game. For me there has definitely been a very noticeable difference in how frequently disputes occur.

It wasn't always someone being mean or unreasonable about another person's performance that caused the above. Sometimes it was friendly and maybe even needed advice that was met with raging. Either way both situations tended to result in an exchange of rude remarks.

I'm not anti parser. I recognise they're excellent tools. There is nothing wrong with parsers. What is wrong is often their users.

DPS meters aren't the issue, it's common human decency and learning to not be rude.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: the community cannot be trusted to give and take criticism sensibly or respectfully, and this is why we don't have an official parser.

Unless we somehow prove to SE that the community as a whole is mature enough to not abuse the tool, I doubt we'll ever see any endorsement beyond the grey area of parsers also known as "don't ask, don't tell".

EDIT: I just want to clarify that when I speak of the frequency of disputes in both games I am referring to content accessed through the DF tool. I am not talking about pug raids. I rarely did them in WoW, and I rarely do them in FFXIV.

[xxvaynxx]

I'm not anti parser. I recognise they're excellent tools. There is nothing wrong with parsers. What is wrong is often their users.



I said it before, and I'll say it again: the community cannot be trusted to give and take criticism sensibly or respectfully, and this is why we don't have an official parser.

Unless we somehow prove to SE that the community as a whole is mature enough to not abuse the tool, I doubt we'll ever see any endorsement beyond the grey area of parsers also known as "don't ask, don't tell".

This is what I've been trying to get across but honestly, you're still gonna get people still asking or bring up anything they can to try to convince people we can play nice.

I too have nothing against parsing, in fact. I'm super competitive with my main job and without fflogs and in a sense parses.
I probably wouldn't always try to get better and better and become one of the best Samurai's.
It keeps me motivated.

But the way people come in here with their passive aggressive remarks in regards to lower skilled players just rubs me the wrong way, which is why I don't want official parses because I know how people can be when it comes to pulling low dps.
I use to be a ps4 player up until shadowbrings and I didn't need a parse to improve, what I used was just reading guides and tips from players better than me.
((though I'm a bit prideful and don't like to admit I need help at times)) But I push aside that pride-fullness to improve.

[linay]

Let's be clear here, expecting someone to be capable of meeting the basic requirement of a given range of content is not toxic.

Well, it seems the basic requirement is to beat the content. If you can beat the content, then it doesn't matter how long you beat it as long as there is no (or minimal) deaths. If you don't beat the content, then it's usually clear to tell the general reason for the failure even without a parser.

I agree that a parser is useful to identify the problem more specifically, but it is apparent that SE doesn't agree that it's required if it can also be used against people when they are meeting the basic requirement.

[QT_Melon]

But the way people come in here with their passive aggressive remarks in regards to lower skilled players just rubs me the wrong way, which is why I don't want official parses because I know how people can be when it comes to pulling low dps.

I know its part of a dog chasing its own tail by me contributing, but the exasperating part is explaining that the fact people were willing to get pretty petty over someone's comment in this thread (multiple instances) only cements what is seen culturally bad in JP. You see someone say "I dare you to say something about my DPS" here come people taking up the flame bait instead of leaving well enough alone.

Yes we know people are sensitive, yes we know it's a tool to improve. But instead of wasting time arguing with someone with how wrong they are: the best way of showing how parsing could be used beneficially WITHOUT the callout was stories on how you have helped me people improve.

But I know I'm grasping at straws, instead I'm sure this will reach more pages with the same arguments from years before, singling out players that have a difference of opinion and instead of earnestly reaching out to those in the negative in wanting to genuinely help them improve or in a better sense extend the olive branch. Nah, we'll just get more people affirming how there's too many sensitive scrubs out in the game and let's make passive aggressive remarks how they looked him/her up on a site and they should feel bad. :P

But hey, if there are people wanting to improve and you reach out to me I'll be happy to point you in the right direction and if you want to take it slow that's great, I can try to set aside some time if you are on the same server. If you don't then that's fine, I'm not gonna go out of my way to make you feel bad and the door is always open. I can't convince people to act differently to show there are ways to make it a more positive experience...because it takes a lot of effort to set aside things culturally but if it inspires some to change their approach about this debate so we can show more responsibility in regarding others so that the tool could be put in the game, in the end that's worth it.

[Urthdigger]

I know its part of a dog chasing its own tail by me contributing, but the exasperating part is explaining that the fact people were willing to get pretty petty over someone's comment in this thread (multiple instances) only cements what is seen culturally bad in JP. You see someone say "I dare you to say something about my DPS" here come people taking up the flame bait instead of leaving well enough alone.

Yes we know people are sensitive, yes we know it's a tool to improve. But instead of wasting time arguing with someone with how wrong they are: the best way of showing how parsing could be used beneficially WITHOUT the callout was stories on how you have helped me people improve.

But I know I'm grasping at straws, instead I'm sure this will reach more pages with the same arguments from years before, singling out players that have a difference of opinion and instead of earnestly reaching out to those in the negative in wanting to genuinely help them improve or in a better sense extend the olive branch. Nah, we'll just get more people affirming how there's too many sensitive scrubs out in the game and let's make passive aggressive remarks how they looked him/her up on a site and they should feel bad. :P

But hey, if there are people wanting to improve and you reach out to me I'll be happy to point you in the right direction and if you want to take it slow that's great, I can try to set aside some time if you are on the same server. If you don't then that's fine, I'm not gonna go out of my way to make you feel bad and the door is always open. I can't convince people to act differently to show there are ways to make it a more positive experience...because it takes a lot of effort to set aside things culturally but if it inspires some to change their approach about this debate so we can show more responsibility in regarding others so that the tool could be put in the game, in the end that's worth it.

They didn't get singled out over their low DPS. They got singled out for their attitude. This was a person who made it abundantly clear that they have no interest in improving or make peace.

I'm perfectly willing to help people improve. That's how I'd prefer things to go. However, if someone starts off with a hostile attitude, I'm not going to waste my time trying to get them to change their mind. They need to be humble enough to accept they have room to improve, and open to taking advice from others. Without that, you might as well talk to a brick wall for all the good it will do.