So...is the Ranged Role gone? Are we in a Reverse HW?

[ForteNightshade]

??? no. if people want higher dps theyll choose sam regardless of safety or whatever. most groups honestly don't care since melee have been dealing with uptime since arr. if the melee has more than 1 brain cell mechanics are nothing to worry about like that


also bard wasnt immediately best dps ever in TEA because of double dot. wasn't world first done with a dancer?

You do realize there are fights where specific strats are needed for those mechanics, yes? The standard strat for O12S was brutal on melee yet very few groups wanted to adjust because the uptime version was much riskier. With M/F, you simply lost damage with zero way to mitigate it. Eden's Gate largely avoided melee downtime but that's one tier. If Machinist did capable damage to Samurai there is zero doubt PF would begin ostracizing it. They did with Ninja and Dancer during 5.0. Even statics were opting out of Ninja because it was objectively inferior by much a wide margin. And ask any Samurai main how Stormblood felt. Dragoon and Ninja dominated the melee scene simply because they were better at nearly everything.

And no. The WF group ran Bard.

[Karshan]

You do realize there are fights where specific strats are needed for those mechanics, yes? The standard strat for O12S was brutal on melee yet very few groups wanted to adjust because the uptime version was much riskier. With M/F, you simply lost damage with zero way to mitigate it. Eden's Gate largely avoided melee downtime but that's one tier. If Machinist did capable damage to Samurai there is zero doubt PF would begin ostracizing it. They did with Ninja and Dancer during 5.0. Even statics were opting out of Ninja because it was objectively inferior by much a wide margin. And ask any Samurai main how Stormblood felt. Dragoon and Ninja dominated the melee scene simply because they were better at nearly everything.

And no. The WF group ran Bard.

You're having me think : maybe they do plan in Verse fights so heavy on mechanics and movement it will bring melee and casters down by 1000 rDPS (and so on par with range).

Hence the absence of change on ranged's DPS. Cause yeah they're in the gutter for the first tier (1000-1500 behind)

[Lastelli]

You're having me think : maybe they do plan in Verse fights so heavy on mechanics and movement it will bring melee and casters down by 1000 rDPS (and so on par with range).

Hence the absence of change on ranged's DPS. Cause yeah they're in the gutter for the first tier (1000-1500 behind)

And yet all speedkill parties include a ranged dps. Either they're wrong (unlikely), or people saying ranged suck are missing something.

[ForteNightshade]

You're having me think : maybe they do plan in Verse fights so heavy on mechanics and movement it will bring melee and casters down by 1000 rDPS (and so on par with range).

Hence the absence of change on ranged's DPS. Cause yeah they're in the gutter for the first tier (1000-1500 behind)

And as Lastelli noted, you could count on one hand the amount of speed kills running double Caster in every single fight combined. This idea the Range are on the cusp of being replaced is simply a myth. It hasn't happened this entire tier including an Ultimate fight where Black Mage, and especially Summoner, were absolute monsters. Of course, I do still think the Range are doing less than they should but they aren't being excluded nor will they come 5.2.

[Karshan]

And as Lastelli noted, you could count on one hand the amount of speed kills running double Caster in every single fight combined. This idea the Range are on the cusp of being replaced is simply a myth. It hasn't happened this entire tier including an Ultimate fight where Black Mage, and especially Summoner, were absolute monsters. Of course, I do still think the Range are doing less than they should but they aren't being excluded nor will they come 5.2.

I reply to you but also Lastelli : nowhere did I say they were being replaced. I just said the second part of your post : they are behind. Not that they are left behind. Nuance.
But they're objectively behind rDPS wise for no specific / valuable reason.

I do not fear them being replaced. Like you both said, a quick look at comps and they're still there. It's just that it bothers me to see discrepancies when there are no valid reason for them to exist in the first place. Maybe I'm a maniac but when you see something uneven, you even it. Maybe it's just me.

[Lastelli]

I reply to you but also Lastelli : nowhere did I say they were being replaced. I just said the second part of your post : they are behind. Not that they are left behind. Nuance.
But they're objectively behind rDPS wise for no specific / valuable reason.

There are plenty of valid reasons:

1) access to the single most powerful damage mitigation tool available to a dps job;
2) total and unconditional mobility, which comes in handy to deal with some mechanics and to ease the burden on other less mobile party members;
3) simple rotations to learn and execute, with close to no punishment for mistakes (MCH and DNC are basically braindead and with BRD the worst thing that could happen is failing to refresh dots with iron jaws, not a big deal);
4) full uptime in any possible scenario.

The role bonus ensures that the marginal rdps contibution of a ranged physical job is more or less on par with the rdps of other melees and casters, so that having one and only one physical ranged dps is optimal.
This is how it should be, given the aforementioned strenghts of physical ranged jobs. Of course, it's not like they can't buff them a little, as long as they don't overdo it...but even now, ranged are ok. You still want one in you party.

[Karshan]

There are plenty of valid reasons:

1) access to the single most powerful damage mitigation tool available to a dps job;
2) total and unconditional mobility, which comes in handy to deal with some mechanics and to ease the burden on other less mobile party members;
3) simple rotations to learn and execute, with close to no punishment for mistakes (MCH and DNC are basically braindead and with BRD the worst thing that could happen is failing to refresh dots with iron jaws, not a big deal);
4) full uptime in any possible scenario.

The role bonus ensures that the marginal rdps contibution of a ranged physical job is more or less on par with the rdps of other melees and casters, so that having one and only one physical ranged dps is optimal.
This is how it should be, given the aforementioned strenghts of physical ranged jobs. Of course, it's not like they can't buff them a little, as long as they don't overdo it...but even now, ranged are ok. You still want one in you party.

1) But only one, since the rest is gone, and it is not so ground breaking either
2) very true (except when you're yourself out of range, but in that case the melee would be as well so fully agree).
3) I'm sorry, melee rotations are not a brain twister either... Don't make it look like ranged rota is a breathe in the park while monk or dragoon are complex cluster of what the fuckery...it is not true and they're pretty straightforward.
4) fully agree, although this reflects in rDPS measured by fflogs. If they didn't have that mobility, they'd be even lower. Already taken into account.

Doesn't equate 1500 rDPS (may I remind that rDPS is measured, not paper based, so all of this is taken into account ALREADY, and still they're far behind).

I think it has more to do with what you said in your last paragraph : the matter is not at all about not taking one, it is that SE fears we always take 2 like it was in heavensward. But there are 4 spots, 3 roles ; we'll always have to take 2 of one, and right now it's never gonna be range. Note how a lot less people question the 2 melee spots. I'm glad BLM i strong and they buffed SMN and RDM so that 2 melee can have a little competition with 2 caster.

[Lastelli]

I think it has more to do with what you said in your last paragraph : the matter is not at all about not taking one, it is that SE fears we always take 2 like it was in heavensward. But there are 4 spots, 3 roles ; we'll always have to take 2 of one, and right now it's never gonna be range.

And that's clearly what the devs want. They're trying to enforce 4 melee-4 ranged as the standard comp, as it was in ARR. It's pretty obvious (notice how they're nerfing SMN, basically confirming that they don't want BLM+SMN to be meta). And this is the most logical comp as well, given the number of jobs for each role (and I'm positive we're getting another melee job in 6.0).

[Eliadil]

1) But only one, since the rest is gone, and it is not so ground breaking either
2) very true (except when you're yourself out of range, but in that case the melee would be as well so fully agree).
3) I'm sorry, melee rotations are not a brain twister either... Don't make it look like ranged rota is a breathe in the park while monk or dragoon are complex cluster of what the fuckery...it is not true and they're pretty straightforward.
4) fully agree, although this reflects in rDPS measured by fflogs. If they didn't have that mobility, they'd be even lower. Already taken into account.

One thing you could possibly do is give the role action that reduces strenght/dex for ranged then, it gives them another damage reduction while not making them that OP (although seeing how it helps on TEA, I think it definitely would).
The issue with ranged is and will always be uptime, that is one thing clearly underestimated by the community, is how strong being free of range limitation and being able to move all the time is. I'm only talking about ranged physical here, not casters, as being a caster means that you have to watch for your GCDs. There is a reason that there is uptime strats made especially for melees and there isn't the same for ranged physical. this is purely the sam main speaking here, but missing even a single GCD has a bigger impact on my dps than forgetting to refresh a dot on bard. And missing a GCD on melee is way easier than ranged, as ranged is more about forgetting to press a button than just being out of range. (if you're out of range then everyone else is too basically)

Ranged, based on this, cannot mess their rotation because of the way a fight is made, opposed to melee. If you mess up your rotation on ranged, then you played poorly (pressed the wrong buttons) where with melee (and also casters) there is a bigger numbers of factor that can make you mess rotation. It's an easy concept of "high risk high reward" play. Increasing the offensive utility of ranged will not bring "balance" in any way. Like somebody else said earlier, two melees are a thing, two casters are too. It is a risk sure, but it has a decent damage reward. However, as soon as you make double ranged viable, then nobody in their right mind would ever take two melees or casters if you could achieve the same reward with less risk. Let's not forget Party Finder in Stormblood, where excluding Sam and Blm was a common thing because even tho they could bring decent damage (higher than the rest in fact) the risk was just too high to be "worth it" for pugs. Peoples will exactly follow the same mentality if you make double ranged viable. This we don't want to, because it will just kill the two other role outright.