So...is the Ranged Role gone? Are we in a Reverse HW?

[HyperiusUltima]

This is a concern since Yoshida didn't even so much as mention Ranged in the Live Letter. The problem we're facing is being so weak that you can literally replace us with a BLM if they can perform high enough to get rid of 1% All Stats for damage(in Savage, not Ultimate). The issue arose in regard to SMN, but since they're nerfing its DoTs, we still are running the same problem unless they bother to properly upgrade Ranged's damage capacity to compensate for the 1k+ DPS/rDPS disparity based on the site that shall not be named.

We ran into the issue of the Ranged Role being taken over all Casters in Heavensward for close to the same reason, but with different applications:

1) Dragoon had Piercing Debuff that scaled at least 400 rDPS. This has been removed since Shadowbringers.

2) Ranged had a monopoly on utility, namely with MP/TP Recovery. This made progression smoother on top of their already strong DPS after being overtuned around 3.4. Those utilities were lessened when TP was no longer an issue in SB, and were removed in Shadowbringers.

But now, it's entirely different:

1) Due to the new damage formula that the development team implemented, DPS classes have gaps between each, and to try and restrict an entire role from locking out another, they implemented a 5% buff based on the roles that are in the party, 1% for each. This has failed as due to the new damage calculation, a high-end BLM can easily outdo any of the Ranged Role even in progression gear in all fights by at least 1,000-1,500 rDPS.

2) SMN's pet rework screwed up the difference between Ranged and Caster, as they now had on-demand Instant GCDs that were DPS Gains thanks to Egi Assault. The issue with this is that while Egi Assault has a cooldown, you have at least 4 charges in total(2 for Egi Assault I and II in total) to be able to use for mobility, damage, or any other reason. On top of that, with how often their Trances come up, they can be just about as mobile as any other Ranged job due to their nature.

In general, they should dismiss the "Mobility Clause" they've been using to justify Ranged's lower DPS alongside utility, but when another job has the same level of mobility as them it blurs the line quite a bit. What needs to happen for Ranged is to balance them to the point where their rDPS contribution closes the gap to around 500 rDPS, which will allow that 1% not to be the only reason to bring a Ranged job.

How it can be achieved?

MCH
- Increase the damage on MCH's burst and baseline to bring it up to a proper level. It's the only selfish job that has a 10% Mitigation and gets outdone by Caster contribution and yet it's not up there around where MNK and SAM are.

BRD
- This job needs some Potency fixes. DoTs in general need to be looked at as a whole so as to rid the game of the Reset issue that another thread mentioned since Iron Jaws is their strongest tool to snapshot buffs and extend their usefulness past the window they're supposed to. BRD's Lv 80 Skill needs to be stronger at base, given that their damage is already lower than all jobs.

DNC
- In a mostly fine spot. Needs some fixes in regards to rDPS contribution, given it's supposed to have the highest due to its powerful buffs it can throw around for the entire party and low pDPS. Also look at Improvisation, because it should only ever serve as a 10% Healing Buff and be on the same pace as SAM's Meditation. Starting at 3 and literally being heavily dependent on the party to stack in your circle is frustrating(especially with that one guy who always runs out of it to screw you out of 1 Esprit). Generally, the baseline for Improvisation should be 10 per tick regardless of party members since there's only 5 ticks in it.

[ForteNightshade]

While that may be the case, in theory, virtually no one drops a Range to run double Caster. In fact, scanning through every speedkill for each fight, I've seen maybe one or two without a Range. Simply put, it doesn't happen even at the hyper competitive level. Now I do agree, the Range DPS should be doing more damage overall. However, saying you'll be replaced just isn't happening.

As for how much they're buffed. You will never see Machinist pull Samurai numbers because of its free mobility. If it did, it renders Samurai pointless. Melee require specific strats catered to their uptime, cannot do certain mechanics for the same reason and are largely the least flexible role. Thus, they can never "dismiss" mobility outright. Even a flat 500 rDPS boast would go a long way, though, personally, I think the entire Range role should go the support route instead of trying to pigeonhole Machinist against Samurai and Black Mage. But that's just me.

[ReiMakoto]

The small buff that ranged got means double blm is no longer better than ditching a ranged, so ranged exist, but mostly for the 1% buff and LB generation

[HyperiusUltima]

While that may be the case, in theory, virtually no one drops a Range to run double Caster. In fact, scanning through every speedkill for each fight, I've seen maybe one or two without a Range. Simply put, it doesn't happen even at the hyper competitive level. Now I do agree, the Range DPS should be doing more damage overall. However, saying you'll be replaced just isn't happening.

As for how much they're buffed. You will never see Machinist pull Samurai numbers because of its free mobility. If it did, it renders Samurai pointless. Melee require specific strats catered to their uptime, cannot do certain mechanics for the same reason and are largely the least flexible role. Thus, they can never "dismiss" mobility outright. Even a flat 500 rDPS boast would go a long way, though, personally, I think the entire Range role should go the support route instead of trying to pigeonhole Machinist against Samurai and Black Mage. But that's just me.

A sound argument, except for one thing: MCH has always been a selfish job and they only gave that 10% mitigation to it as a generalization from what BRD gave from Troubadour since Dismantle wasn't an equivalent of it in a few cases(Omega M/F, Guardian, Halicarnassus). The only support they provide is just that mitigation currently, and their top level of damage is at RDM's damage. It's a bit silly to think that a job that's focused on giant bursts windows just like SAM has only the equivalent of a RDM just stepping in with much more utility. Now, I'm not saying that MCH NEEDS to do SAM levels of damage. To be fair, the difference between MCH and MNK/SAM should be 300-400 at most so as MCH isn't encroaching on Melee DPS' weakness to mechanics. 500 if you want to push it just because of new Tactician.

Jobs like BRD/DNC that have job mechanics designed for supporting the party should go the support route so that their rDPS is measured in how they line up their buffs compared to their damage, which is usually on the low side due to increasing others' damage by a decent amount.

[Eliadil]

Now, I'm not saying that MCH NEEDS to do SAM levels of damage. To be fair, the difference between MCH and MNK/SAM should be 300-400 at most so as MCH isn't encroaching on Melee DPS' weakness to mechanics. 500 if you want to push it just because of new Tactician.

even a 500rdps difference between MCH and SAM would just kill SAM, as the class is way, way, way more difficult to pull off, and peoples would just ditch sam because a machinist would be a much safer bet on every level, and would remove the need to adapt to uptime strat (seriously, have you seen the uptime strat for sam on just E4S ? You gotta dash on Titan's cart at the moment he pushes everybody, and the fight is full of stupid stuff like this just to be a tiny bit ahead of BLM).

Ranged cannot be that far ahead because it would just render every melee useless or would just mean you're hurting your team by having one. Just look TEA as an example, when peoples saw that most of the fight had double target, the first thing that became known was "you're throwing the run if you don't have a bard in your team. You need the double dot".
Just with this fight alone, bard went from bottom rdps class (so one that by following your logic nobody would want) to one of the most wanted class for the current high end content. And with the next Ifrit/Garuda fight you can bet that it will be exactly the same.

Iirc MCH had a vuln up debuff before, maybe finding a way to give it back would be better than just "increasing its dps to top-melee level". At least it doesn't make melees useless.

[ReiMakoto]

A sound argument, except for one thing: MCH has always been a selfish job and they only gave that 10% mitigation to it as a generalization from what BRD gave from Troubadour since Dismantle wasn't an equivalent of it in a few cases(Omega M/F, Guardian, Halicarnassus). The only support they provide is just that mitigation currently, and their top level of damage is at RDM's damage. It's a bit silly to think that a job that's focused on giant bursts windows just like SAM has only the equivalent of a RDM just stepping in with much more utility. Now, I'm not saying that MCH NEEDS to do SAM levels of damage. To be fair, the difference between MCH and MNK/SAM should be 300-400 at most so as MCH isn't encroaching on Melee DPS' weakness to mechanics. 500 if you want to push it just because of new Tactician.

Jobs like BRD/DNC that have job mechanics designed for supporting the party should go the support route so that their rDPS is measured in how they line up their buffs compared to their damage, which is usually on the low side due to increasing others' damage by a decent amount.

Mch hasnt always been a selfish job, Hyper charge was a trick attack equivalent in SB and in hw in the no caster setup it was a very strong buff. Its selfish only identity is new to this expac

[SpeckledBurd]

Iirc MCH had a vuln up debuff before, maybe finding a way to give it back would be better than just "increasing its dps to top-melee level". At least it doesn't make melees useless.

We live in a world where people are much more cognizant of how much rDPS a job is doing is the thing. The primary metric people are using is the raid contribution of each job instead of just the person damage. So if Machinist was given that buff and Bard and Dancer had their support buffed back up to that level, if they came within swinging distance of the melee we might still see double ranged comps rearing their heads again.

[MPNZ]

Maybe if they implemented multi-hit attacks, deathblows from Xenogears, situational skills, and crowd control abilities they could rebalance things. But, that also means that the personal skill floor will be raised higher in the developer's eyes. It would just be easier for them to implement everything if they just made a new game that would eliminate the spaghetti-code issue excuse...

TBH, just allowing crit to help with procs alongside the 35% proc-rate for BRD & DNC would definitly be like a total QoL improvement in terms of fun and RNG.
Oh, and totally make a six-to-eight-hit flamethrower drones for MCH, and outright replace the current action. It's the super obvious thing to implement...

[QooEr]

even a 500rdps difference between MCH and SAM would just kill SAM, as the class is way, way, way more difficult to pull off, and peoples would just ditch sam because a machinist would be a much safer bet on every level, and would remove the need to adapt to uptime strat (seriously, have you seen the uptime strat for sam on just E4S ? You gotta dash on Titan's cart at the moment he pushes everybody, and the fight is full of stupid stuff like this just to be a tiny bit ahead of BLM).

Ranged cannot be that far ahead because it would just render every melee useless or would just mean you're hurting your team by having one. Just look TEA as an example, when peoples saw that most of the fight had double target, the first thing that became known was "you're throwing the run if you don't have a bard in your team. You need the double dot".
Just with this fight alone, bard went from bottom rdps class (so one that by following your logic nobody would want) to one of the most wanted class for the current high end content. And with the next Ifrit/Garuda fight you can bet that it will be exactly the same.

Iirc MCH had a vuln up debuff before, maybe finding a way to give it back would be better than just "increasing its dps to top-melee level". At least it doesn't make melees useless.

??? no. if people want higher dps theyll choose sam regardless of safety or whatever. most groups honestly don't care since melee have been dealing with uptime since arr. if the melee has more than 1 brain cell mechanics are nothing to worry about like that


also bard wasnt immediately best dps ever in TEA because of double dot. wasn't world first done with a dancer?

[Kabooa]

Pretty sure the majority of progression teams will still be bard, summoner, dragoon, and something else.