SE, don't nerf SMN's DoT potency. Remove Tri-Disaster's Reset Mechanic First.

[Kabooa]

Look man, I wouldn't be saying this if I hadn't already seen it happen before.

This is not something I just pulled out of my rear end here. I made the mistake last time around of "assuming" it would be fine.

It was clearly not.

Summoner's problem is never its DoT damage at the start of expansions. The problem is that each expansion they take hard 90 degree turns in the Job's design and flow. Go back through and look through Stormblood patch notes.

At no point was DoT damage ever increased. From the start of Stormblood to the end, the rank 3 dots were 50, which at the time was mostly equivalent to what Summoners had in Heavensward with Bio + Bio II + Miasma I.

[Silverquick]

Summoner's problem is never its DoT damage at the start of expansions. The problem is that each expansion they take hard 90 degree turns in the Job's design and flow. Go back through and look through Stormblood patch notes.

At no point was DoT damage ever increased. From the start of Stormblood to the end, the rank 3 dots were 50, which at the time was mostly equivalent to what Summoners had in Heavensward with Bio + Bio II + Miasma I.

No it did decrease and in a drastic measure. It went from Bio + Bio II + Miasma + Miasma II + Shadowflare stacked and all ticking... down to only Bio and Miasma with escalating steps no longer stacked.

It was so bad they eventually added Outburst which USED to be called "Tri-Bind" which was originally only a dinky little 20 potency AoE prior with a "Root" type addition to it.

That was changed to eventually become the 90 potency AoE it is today to account for all that lost damage. And this doesn't even get into Bane.

There is a whole host of things that had to be changed because that tiny little nerf hosed up everything all the way up the chain.

[Kabooa]

No it did decrease and in a drastic measure. It went from Bio + Bio II + Miasma + Miasma II + Shadowflare stacked and all ticking... down to only Bio and Miasma with escalating steps no longer stacked.

The only point worth anything here is Shadowflare. I can't remember which version Stormblood had, but every iteration of it for potency is made up by having one demi summon per trance.

Summoner's problems are not DoT damage.

It all comes down to PPS in the end - Where as removing Tri-Disaster's reset isn't just PPS, it's gameflow.

Again - Unless Summoners hate tri-disaster resets, it makes no sense to alter game flow to achieve the same goal of a DoT reduction.

[Silverquick]

Summoner's problems are not DoT damage.

That's not what I'm getting at my friend.

The point is not that they need MORE DoTs... the point is, that nerfing the DoTs causes catastrophic damage to the job in ways you cannot foresee and will end up having to fixed later.

This is what we learned over that.

You have to pick something other than the DoTs to nerf because of how integrated and critical they are at all levels.

[Kabooa]

That's not what I'm getting at my friend.

The point is not that they need MORE DoTs... the point is, that nerfing the DoTs causes catastrophic damage to the job in ways you cannot foresee and will end up having to fixed later.

This is what we learned over that.

You have to pick something other than the DoTs to nerf because of how integrated and critical they are at all levels.

Nah. They're going to pick DoTs, adjust them down to maybe 45, 40 potentially with a slight boost to Ruin, and Summoner will be fine.

[HyperiusUltima]

That's not what I'm getting at my friend.

The point is not that they need MORE DoTs... the point is, that nerfing the DoTs causes catastrophic damage to the job in ways you cannot foresee and will end up having to fixed later.

This is what we learned over that.

You have to pick something other than the DoTs to nerf because of how integrated and critical they are at all levels.

This speaks true, but to be fair they're mainly going to focus on the 3rd iteration and not touch anything else below it. That way, it won't impact the experience when you're leveling. However, as OP stated, there needs to be a change to Tri-D. Ever since they slapped 300 potency on it, it's interrupted the original use of it, which was only for reset purposes and not pure damage. Reverting it to having no potency would fix SMN's contribution issue since the Snapshotting of Buffs can be looked at at a separate time when they're going into 5.4 or 6.0.

[Kabooa]

This speaks true, but to be fair they're mainly going to focus on the 3rd iteration and not touch anything else below it. That way, it won't impact the experience when you're leveling. However, as OP stated, there needs to be a change to Tri-D. Ever since they slapped 300 potency on it, it's interrupted the original use of it, which was only for reset purposes and not pure damage. Reverting it to having no potency would fix SMN's contribution issue since the Snapshotting of Buffs can be looked at at a separate time when they're going into 5.4 or 6.0.

Remember Tridisaster used to give Ruination.

Ruin didn't get the potency folded into it after its removal, Outburst did. The 300 upfront potency is the same as if you made perfect use of Ruination (15 seconds, 6 gcds, +50 per gcd used on Ruin)

While the change made it easier to always get the full benefit, it also isn't just a flat +900 every two minutes. Removing the potency with nothing coming back is nearly the same as losing out on two Demi Enkindles.

[Silverquick]

This speaks true, but to be fair they're mainly going to focus on the 3rd iteration and not touch anything else below it. That way, it won't impact the experience when you're leveling. However, as OP stated, there needs to be a change to Tri-D. Ever since they slapped 300 potency on it, it's interrupted the original use of it, which was only for reset purposes and not pure damage. Reverting it to having no potency would fix SMN's contribution issue since the Snapshotting of Buffs can be looked at at a separate time when they're going into 5.4 or 6.0.

I think its being looked at wrong in terms of what you can look at as far as more targeted that won't affect the Job up and down the chain the way DoTs do. Because even level 66 and higher is a ton of content that would be affected.

Instead of looking at the DoTs which do cause that kind of problem to the Job.

Perhaps instead they should be looking at things like Wyrmwave and Scarlet Flame that won't have the potential to cause that kind of catastrophic damage up and down the levels.

Those are the types of things that would be specifically targeted and not affect the job up and down the chain like that.

[HyperiusUltima]

I think its being looked at wrong in terms of what you can look at as far as more targeted that won't affect the Job up and down the chain the way DoTs do. Because even level 66 and higher is a ton of content that would be affected.

Instead of looking at the DoTs which do cause that kind of problem to the Job.

Perhaps instead they should be looking at things like Wyrmwave and Scarlet Flame that won't have the potential to cause that kind of catastrophic damage up and down the levels.

Those are the types of things that would be specifically targeted and not affect the job up and down the chain like that.

...you're missing the point. It doesn't go up and down the entire leveling spectrum as you keep saying it does unless they blanket Miasma 1-3 and Bio 1-3, which is illogical. At Lv 66, you should know at least the basis of your job. They specifically are targeting DoTs because that's generally what causes 2-target high-end raids to favor SMN over most other jobs because of how damage contribution skyrockets in that regard. Lv 70 and Lv 80 though...they really shouldn't tweak their burst phase because if they do, it's going to make SMN's damage be lower than it would be with DoTs considering the potency attached.

[Nemekh]

Summoner's problem is never its DoT damage at the start of expansions. The problem is that each expansion they take hard 90 degree turns in the Job's design and flow. Go back through and look through Stormblood patch notes.

At no point was DoT damage ever increased. From the start of Stormblood to the end, the rank 3 dots were 50, which at the time was mostly equivalent to what Summoners had in Heavensward with Bio + Bio II + Miasma I.

This is not correct at all. There's a reason why the DoT yoyo meme exists with 40 50 40 50 x.

Stormblood DoTs started at 40p/t each. In 4.06 they were both increased to 50p/t each due to Summoner's weaker damage at the time, all before the huge patch that was 4.10.