FFXIV Devs: Please STOP punishing normal players for others breaking the rules.

[SaitoHikari]

k so 97% of playerbase does Ultimate. I'm learning every day.

Where did I say that? Have you even understood what I'm trying to say? Most people don't do Ultimate, like you. That's fine. Whether you raid Ultimate or not is actually irrelevant to what I'm trying to say, all I did was provide one example of an Ultimate raid mechanic that's seriously impacted by this change. But my real point is that people running all kinds of content will move markers during combat for their own reasons throughout their time playing this game.

So, with that, I ask: What benefit is there to restrict that, especially when SE is already giving players one of the features of that third party program, the ability to place preset markers? So people can just go 'haw haw, get gud?' Wasn't this supposed to be a game about teamwork?

I am arguing from a design perspective, and this restriction isn't beneficial in the long term. Especially if it results in people just using such programs to bypass the restriction, and normal players can't replicate the results at all. Is the actual goal to kill the third party app, or restrict the playerbase? Because this decision leans towards the latter far more heavily than the other.

[Schan]

Where did I say that? Have you even understood what I'm trying to say? Most people don't do Ultimate, like you. That's fine. Whether you raid Ultimate or not is actually irrelevant to what I'm trying to say, all I did was provide one example of an Ultimate raid mechanic that's seriously impacted by this change. But my real point is that people running all kinds of content will move markers during combat for their own reasons throughout their time playing this game.

So, with that, I ask: What benefit is there to restrict that, especially when SE is already giving players one of the features of that third party program, the ability to place preset markers? So people can just go 'haw haw, get gud?' Wasn't this supposed to be a game about teamwork?

I am arguing from a design perspective, and this restriction isn't beneficial in the long term. Especially if it results in people just using such programs to bypass the restriction, and normal players can't replicate the results at all. Is the actual goal to kill the third party app, or restrict the playerbase? Because this decision leans towards the latter far more heavily than the other.

Oh my someone is really certain that I don't do Ultimate. Have you taken to the website that must not be named? Surely if you are that certain that I have not set foot in Ultimates before...

I can tell you at least people won't be able to troll by removing markers. Let me guess, that doesn't happen enough to warrant such drastic measure?
Changing markers during the fight also falls under that argument. It doesn't happen often enough to warrant keeping that in.

You can argue all you want from a design perspective but that is your opinion and the way you predict it will affect the game. My prediction is people will complain about the early pullers in raids, followed by the fact that you can't kick people while the loot is still up for grabs (the timer is huge) followed by people adjusting by puttng them down fast enough.

I will say this again. It will not be as bad as you make it out to be.

[SaitoHikari]

Oh my someone is really certain that I don't do Ultimate. Have you taken to the website that must not be named? Surely if you are that certain that I have not set foot in Ultimates before...

I checked. You don't have a recorded clear, which is where my assumption came from. I won't mention my own clears, which is pretty irrelevant to the current point anyway. Sorry, and I wish you good luck in your efforts.

That said, to the rest of the statement, Hyo explained it well. You argue that it is my opinion about how this will affect the game, but at the same time, your arguments talking about why this isn't actually a major thing are also opinions in themselves.

I argue that this is a bad thing because it's taking options away from the playerbase, and SE just made a bigger problem in that cheaters will just look for ways to circumvent the restrictions in their own way - with the common playerbase now having no way to replicate the results manually. You've yet to argue why this change is a good thing, you've only argued about its perceived effects on the playerbase. So if we're in agreement that this is bad, just that we disagree on exactly how bad it is -- then isn't it a better use of our energy to encourage SE to reverse this decision? Personally, this won't affect me much, but that doesn't mean I can't emphasize with the people that might be affected in ways across all types of content that I cannot predict. Such is the nature of design.

Again, I should rephrase and repeat myself: At what point does this decision cross from an attempt to kill the use of the third party program, into placing a restriction on the whole of the playerbase? Because realistically, the gap between cheaters and normal players has widened. It's contradictory design, and that's where my grievances with this decision lie. SE only needs to do one thing to kill the program now that they've already made their own preset marker system, and that's letting us move markers in combat again.

EDIT: Reading over your latest post, it seems you're just here arguing semantics about numbers in a sentence, and using that to downplay the whole thing. Anyway, since it's clear where we're at, I'd say we've made ourselves clear, and I'll just drop it at this.

[Schan]

I checked. You don't have a recorded clear, which is where my assumption came from. I won't mention my own clears, which is pretty irrelevant to the current point anyway. Sorry, and I wish you good luck in your efforts.

That said, to the rest of the statement, Hyo explained it well. You argue that it is my opinion about how this will affect the game, but at the same time, your arguments talking about why this isn't actually a major thing are also opinions in themselves.

Yes but we're here to state opinions. They are different and the only way One or the other will be proven right is by watching how this will play out. Right now we just have assumptions to go by. I think it's good to voice your concerns.

I argue that this is a bad thing because it's taking options away from the playerbase, and SE just made a bigger problem in that cheaters will just look for ways to circumvent the restrictions in their own way - with the common playerbase now having no way to replicate the results manually. You've yet to argue why this change is a good thing, you've only argued about its perceived effects on the playerbase. So if we're in agreement that this is bad, just that we disagree on exactly how bad it is -- then isn't it a better use of our energy to encourage SE to reverse this decision?

Again, I should rephrase and repeat myself: At what point does this decision cross from an attempt to kill the use of the third party program, into placing a restriction on the whole of the playerbase? Because realistically, the gap between cheaters and normal players has widened. SE only needs to do one thing to kill the program now that they've already made their own preset marker system, and that's letting us move markers in combat again.

I do agree that the cheaters will most likely circumvent this and legit players will suffer in the long run. I also think they should've punished the players who stream in places where you can see they are using such programs however I can also see the other side of wanting to issue a warning since they never really made an official public statement about it. Yoshi P even said he wasn't aware such programs existed until recently. I'm hoping they will start to crack down on it.

I'm also hoping that not being able to change markers during the fight is a temporary thing. They could just be checking if the measures they have put in place to stop the program are actually working before enabling it again. Who knows. Regarding stating that having players still be able to put markers up during a fight while having the presets it would kill the 3rd party program... I'm not quite sure if it would. I think I've seen it before and from what I can tell it's instant which is a big benefit to manual (who knows if the presets will be as fast) and you need ot ocnsider that you will only be able to save 5 presets. Nothing stops you from still have the program to have extra preset slots.

Like cheating everywhere it's a complex problem that can't just have a blanket solution. I think they're are taking the drastic measure to buy time but who knows.