FFXIV Devs: Please STOP punishing normal players for others breaking the rules.

[Schan]

ffs, just because it doesn't affect you personally doesn't mean it's not a legitimate issue worth arguing about. Not everything needs to affect 100% of the playerbase for the devs to consider it an issue. Otherwise, we wouldn't even be in this position in the first place, and half the problems this game has had over the years wouldn't have been addressed.

and what makes you say it doesn't affect me personally? I'm arguing against the hyperbolic statements the OP has laid out. Will it be annoying for the people who do Ultimate bcause it's now an incovenience? definetely but are you also telling me the markers were what made or break you clearing the Ultimate? then i'm sorry but you need to get good.

[SaitoHikari]

and what makes you say it doesn't affect me personally? I'm arguing against the hyperbolic statements the OP has laid out. Will it be annoying for the people who do Ultimate bcause it's now an incovenience? definetely but are you also telling me the markers were what made or break you clearing the Ultimate? then i'm sorry but you need to get good.

Hyperbolic in what way? If there was anything hyperbolic in that statement, it would be in the 'for what 3% of the playerbase does' part, as that's a number that's really highballing the estimates. It doesn't matter how useful a certain feature is for differing parts of the playerbase, what matters is that they still took something away from -everyone- regardless. Something people may not find useful now, but the point is that usefulness in design is never a static thing, and that coming out to argue that it's not actually bad because most people don't care right at this moment is asinine.

It's like trying to argue that taking away macros in response to third party tools is fine because most people don't use them very well, and you need to get better if you relied on them for whatever reason. It's a concept not worth entertaining.

[Schan]

Hyperbolic in what way? If there was anything hyperbolic in that statement, it would be in the 'for what 3% of the playerbase does' part, as that's a number that's really highballing the estimates. It doesn't matter how useful a certain feature is for differing parts of the playerbase, what matters is that they still took something away from -everyone- regardless. Something people may not find useful now, but the point is that usefulness in design is never a static thing, and that coming out to argue that it's not actually bad because most people don't care is asinine.

It's like trying to argue that taking away macros in response to third party tools is fine because most people don't use them very well, and you need to get better if you relied on them for whatever reason. It's a concept not worth entertaining.

k so 97% of playerbase does Ultimate. I'm learning every day.

edit:i have explained why they may have done so but i guess you missed it. with that said i do share your hope that by adding presets they would've pretty much killed the external program but time will tell.

[SaitoHikari]

k so 97% of playerbase does Ultimate. I'm learning every day.

Where did I say that? Have you even understood what I'm trying to say? Most people don't do Ultimate, like you. That's fine. Whether you raid Ultimate or not is actually irrelevant to what I'm trying to say, all I did was provide one example of an Ultimate raid mechanic that's seriously impacted by this change. But my real point is that people running all kinds of content will move markers during combat for their own reasons throughout their time playing this game.

So, with that, I ask: What benefit is there to restrict that, especially when SE is already giving players one of the features of that third party program, the ability to place preset markers? So people can just go 'haw haw, get gud?' Wasn't this supposed to be a game about teamwork?

I am arguing from a design perspective, and this restriction isn't beneficial in the long term. Especially if it results in people just using such programs to bypass the restriction, and normal players can't replicate the results at all. Is the actual goal to kill the third party app, or restrict the playerbase? Because this decision leans towards the latter far more heavily than the other.

[Schan]

Where did I say that? Have you even understood what I'm trying to say? Most people don't do Ultimate, like you. That's fine. Whether you raid Ultimate or not is actually irrelevant to what I'm trying to say, all I did was provide one example of an Ultimate raid mechanic that's seriously impacted by this change. But my real point is that people running all kinds of content will move markers during combat for their own reasons throughout their time playing this game.

So, with that, I ask: What benefit is there to restrict that, especially when SE is already giving players one of the features of that third party program, the ability to place preset markers? So people can just go 'haw haw, get gud?' Wasn't this supposed to be a game about teamwork?

I am arguing from a design perspective, and this restriction isn't beneficial in the long term. Especially if it results in people just using such programs to bypass the restriction, and normal players can't replicate the results at all. Is the actual goal to kill the third party app, or restrict the playerbase? Because this decision leans towards the latter far more heavily than the other.

Oh my someone is really certain that I don't do Ultimate. Have you taken to the website that must not be named? Surely if you are that certain that I have not set foot in Ultimates before...

I can tell you at least people won't be able to troll by removing markers. Let me guess, that doesn't happen enough to warrant such drastic measure?
Changing markers during the fight also falls under that argument. It doesn't happen often enough to warrant keeping that in.

You can argue all you want from a design perspective but that is your opinion and the way you predict it will affect the game. My prediction is people will complain about the early pullers in raids, followed by the fact that you can't kick people while the loot is still up for grabs (the timer is huge) followed by people adjusting by puttng them down fast enough.

I will say this again. It will not be as bad as you make it out to be.

[SaitoHikari]

Oh my someone is really certain that I don't do Ultimate. Have you taken to the website that must not be named? Surely if you are that certain that I have not set foot in Ultimates before...

I checked. You don't have a recorded clear, which is where my assumption came from. I won't mention my own clears, which is pretty irrelevant to the current point anyway. Sorry, and I wish you good luck in your efforts.

That said, to the rest of the statement, Hyo explained it well. You argue that it is my opinion about how this will affect the game, but at the same time, your arguments talking about why this isn't actually a major thing are also opinions in themselves.

I argue that this is a bad thing because it's taking options away from the playerbase, and SE just made a bigger problem in that cheaters will just look for ways to circumvent the restrictions in their own way - with the common playerbase now having no way to replicate the results manually. You've yet to argue why this change is a good thing, you've only argued about its perceived effects on the playerbase. So if we're in agreement that this is bad, just that we disagree on exactly how bad it is -- then isn't it a better use of our energy to encourage SE to reverse this decision? Personally, this won't affect me much, but that doesn't mean I can't emphasize with the people that might be affected in ways across all types of content that I cannot predict. Such is the nature of design.

Again, I should rephrase and repeat myself: At what point does this decision cross from an attempt to kill the use of the third party program, into placing a restriction on the whole of the playerbase? Because realistically, the gap between cheaters and normal players has widened. It's contradictory design, and that's where my grievances with this decision lie. SE only needs to do one thing to kill the program now that they've already made their own preset marker system, and that's letting us move markers in combat again.

EDIT: Reading over your latest post, it seems you're just here arguing semantics about numbers in a sentence, and using that to downplay the whole thing. Anyway, since it's clear where we're at, I'd say we've made ourselves clear, and I'll just drop it at this.

[Schan]

I checked. You don't have a recorded clear, which is where my assumption came from. I won't mention my own clears, which is pretty irrelevant to the current point anyway. Sorry, and I wish you good luck in your efforts.

That said, to the rest of the statement, Hyo explained it well. You argue that it is my opinion about how this will affect the game, but at the same time, your arguments talking about why this isn't actually a major thing are also opinions in themselves.

Yes but we're here to state opinions. They are different and the only way One or the other will be proven right is by watching how this will play out. Right now we just have assumptions to go by. I think it's good to voice your concerns.

I argue that this is a bad thing because it's taking options away from the playerbase, and SE just made a bigger problem in that cheaters will just look for ways to circumvent the restrictions in their own way - with the common playerbase now having no way to replicate the results manually. You've yet to argue why this change is a good thing, you've only argued about its perceived effects on the playerbase. So if we're in agreement that this is bad, just that we disagree on exactly how bad it is -- then isn't it a better use of our energy to encourage SE to reverse this decision?

Again, I should rephrase and repeat myself: At what point does this decision cross from an attempt to kill the use of the third party program, into placing a restriction on the whole of the playerbase? Because realistically, the gap between cheaters and normal players has widened. SE only needs to do one thing to kill the program now that they've already made their own preset marker system, and that's letting us move markers in combat again.

I do agree that the cheaters will most likely circumvent this and legit players will suffer in the long run. I also think they should've punished the players who stream in places where you can see they are using such programs however I can also see the other side of wanting to issue a warning since they never really made an official public statement about it. Yoshi P even said he wasn't aware such programs existed until recently. I'm hoping they will start to crack down on it.

I'm also hoping that not being able to change markers during the fight is a temporary thing. They could just be checking if the measures they have put in place to stop the program are actually working before enabling it again. Who knows. Regarding stating that having players still be able to put markers up during a fight while having the presets it would kill the 3rd party program... I'm not quite sure if it would. I think I've seen it before and from what I can tell it's instant which is a big benefit to manual (who knows if the presets will be as fast) and you need ot ocnsider that you will only be able to save 5 presets. Nothing stops you from still have the program to have extra preset slots.

Like cheating everywhere it's a complex problem that can't just have a blanket solution. I think they're are taking the drastic measure to buy time but who knows.

[HyoMinPark]

k so 97% of playerbase does Ultimate. I'm learning every day.

edit:i have explained why they may have done so but i guess you missed it. with that said i do share your hope that by adding presets they would've pretty much killed the external program but time will tell.

You aren’t understanding what Saito is saying: only certain Ultimate raiders actually used the waymark injection programs in UCoB and TEA—not all of them. Only a fraction of the 1% that are already doing content for the 1% of the population. Instead of trying to go after these people—many of which have been caught on streams using these programs, so, easy enough to target since they have set a precedent that Twitch streams are fair game for account penalties—they decide to blanket ban using waymarks in combat for the entire playerbase. It’s an over-reaction, in my opinion. Coming from an Ultimate raider who never used the waymark injection stuff, but who had groups that manually placed divebomb markers in UCoB for Nael phase because it just makes it that much more easier to deal with.

Oh my someone is really certain that I don't do Ultimate. Have you taken to the website that must not be named? Surely if you are that certain that I have not set foot in Ultimates before...

To be fair, you don’t have a clear listed on there. I checked.

I can tell you at least people won't be able to troll by removing markers.

We actually don’t know that. Nothing has seemed to have been confirmed that waymarks cannot be removed after combat has been initiated, just that they cannot be placed.

Changing markers during the fight also falls under that argument. It doesn't happen often enough to warrant keeping that in.

When it does happen, there’s generally a fairly good reason for it taking place. Again, creating an annoyance for the majority to punish the minority.

I will say this again. It will not be as bad as you make it out to be.

It will be annoying as all heck, but raiders will adjust. We always do. So I’m not worried about us learning to adjust to this new change.

[Schan]

You aren’t understanding what Saito is saying: only certain Ultimate raiders actually used the waymark injection programs in UCoB and TEA—not all of them. Only a fraction of the 1% that are already doing content for the 1% of the population. Instead of trying to go after these people—many of which have been caught on streams using these programs, so, easy enough to target since they have set a precedent that Twitch streams are fair game for account penalties—they decide to blanket ban using waymarks in combat for the entire playerbase. It’s an over-reaction, in my opinion. Coming from an Ultimate raider who never used the waymark injection stuff, but who had groups that manually placed divebomb markers in UCoB for Nael phase because it just makes it that much more easier to deal with.

I'm pretty sure i did Hyo, love. If you change the perspective of what the OP said it's somewhat right in the sense that 97% of the people who do Ultimate will be affected by something the 3% (overshooting the percetage) does but even going by that perspective it's innacurate because it also affects people who do 24 man raids which is probably a bigger chunk of the general playerbase.
I understood it properly, but it's still somewhat innacurate and it still feels like an hyperbole. I'm fine with the arguments I just get really annoyed when people use hyperboles. With that said I am not above using them myself when I feel peole are not understanding me but I try my best to avoid using them as an opening statement.

edit: i don't understand why he's arguing with me on behalf of the OP though. I have an issue with that one sentence from the OP. Everything else is fair game. Some people will be happy, some people will be unhappy and some people will be neutral to it. Some people will act like its the end of the world. Such is the way of the Official Forums.

edit 2 : it's unproductive to bring numbers into this discussion because then you get people like me who get really hung on those numbers taking away from the discussion.