Mediocrity should NOT be the standard for players in any content.

[xxvaynxx]

A player struggling and getting a grey parse because he is not a good player is ok.
A player getting grey parse because chill dude its just a game I'm having fun just pressing Jolt and why are you complaining boss died lol is not.

Why not though? its dead.

[Valic]

A player struggling and getting a grey parse because he is not a good player is ok.
A player getting grey parse because chill dude its just a game I'm having fun just pressing Jolt and why are you complaining boss died lol is not.

THIS. I love how people bring parse into it thinking it's the end all be all without this preface.

*snip

At this point, I'm ignoring your post after the first line of it acknowledging you're just a troll. Post something worth giving a damn.

[xxvaynxx]

THIS. I love how people bring parse into it thinking it's the end all be all without this preface.

But if you're a raider.
If you have a bunch of grey parses and you tell someone "oh its because I died a lot/healer keeps letting me die!/tank died so I died next!" nobody serious is gonna take their chances with a grey to green parser or even low blue if you have a lot of them.
Mayhaps if you have enough 75% or higher percentile to back up those claims anyway, which most don't with those excuses.

If you know how to do mechs but still doing sub optimal dps, you won't be getting into any good statics. Because by your logic, that's being mediocre/bad!

[Nedkel]

I found it funny that OP do not have any experience with harder content whatsoever in HW or Stormblood yet he easily states something like this without hesitate.

Content is getting easier, it's a given even when considering the change over these last 2 expansions in how mechanics are done and movement with the new job gauges. Many jobs got hit with a bomb that makes them as simple as the one next to it without even trying. Solo instances/quests that once demanded the player learned their job and how to optimize to succeed now offer not just "easy" when failed... but "VERY EASY". Savage was made "more accessible" despite the content being created for the very purpose of being difficult and providing a genuine challenge to players who seeked more than just the standard MSQ/side content.

How do you know it is getting easier when you barely scratched content in stormblood OP? This thread is kinda bs
Nope its not getting easier to mind you, it stays on similar level with the previous expansion.
Smells like Dunning kruger effect and world of warcraft entitlement, "why should i improve myself when everyone else could".
Do you realize the parses you see on the certain site and numbers presented there are the bracket of all kind of people who played the content in the game? Do you know the parse for specific raids are biased thanks to the premade groups with organised and well trained people with bis gear and bis jobs who are pushing the numbers waaay higher than any pug group could even imagine to have, right? Since they are planning all steps down to single buffs and damage windows, this kind of organisation cannot be never reached by pugs which creates a gap between them and visible in the numbers on that site. Because data has not been separated between pugs and professional static it creates a false image of pugs underperforming so badly.
It all comes down to the data analysis which is made super poorly on the logs website, keep that in mind.

[Valic]

I found it funny that OP do not have any experience with harder content whatsoever in HW or Stormblood yet he easily states something like this without hesitate.



How do you know it is getting easier when you barely scratched content in stormblood OP? This thread is kinda bs
Nope its not getting easier to mind you, it stays on similar level with the previous expansion.
Smells like Dunning kruger effect and world of warcraft entitlement, "why should i improve myself when everyone else could".
Do you realize the parses you see on the certain site and numbers presented there are the bracket of all kind of people who played the content in the game? Do you know the parse for specific raids are biased thanks to the premade groups with organised and well trained people who are pushing the numbers waaay higher than any pug group could even imagine to have, right? Since they are planning all steps down to single buffs and damage windows, this kind of organisation cannot be never reached by pugs which creates a gap between them and visible in the numbers on that site.

Under what preface do you declare I have no experience with HW or SB content? Where is this assumption's proof? Also what does any of your post have to do with anything going on in this thread?

But if you're a raider.
If you have a bunch of grey parses and you tell someone "oh its because I died a lot/healer keeps letting me die!/tank died so I died next!" nobody serious is gonna take their chances with a grey to green parser or even low blue if you have a lot of them.
Mayhaps if you have enough 75% or higher percentile to back up those claims anyway, which most don't with those excuses.

If you know how to do mechs but still doing sub optimal dps, you won't be getting into any good statics. Because by your logic, that's being mediocre/bad!

I am. I agree, but parse is a % of playerbase and this is also under the assumption I'm talking about specifically savage/ex content. This is also the assumption that you're required to have colorful parses to clear content. This is just as incorrect. My whole point in this thread is that in standard content, at this point where we are now able to be level 80, every plyer should know how to do 1. mitigate as a tank. 2. understand aoe heals and regular healing 3. DPS understand a basic 1v1 rotation and an aoe rotation. And 4. General marker understanding such as knowing what a stack marker is and what a "this will hurt anyone near me" marker is. You're going into this thread assuming I'm talking about hardcore content, to which I am not.

My claim is that SE's presenting the standard to progress normally/casually in this game as very very low. Things that required a player to square up such as the role quest before the ending of ShB MSQ that at least demand the player knows how to move/dodge/stack.... is now capable of being done on "easy" and "very easy". This presents the idea that it is okay to not learn.

Reading people talk about color parses and STILL not understanding how FFLogs works is EXTREMELY disheartening.

It's not just about color but MULTITUDES of context and what each job could do. Then the time frame changes the percentile. Basically the parses uploaded early on was set by a small sample. The players who posted even said so. Then it's also affected by party contribution and makeup. On top of that a death affects the parse. If a player dies because someone else fails the mechanic it affects their output.

The data is only "Good" for a limited time frame as a measurement DUE to the fact that once the top players have cleared and set in the data, they also will be geared up and look for ways to get the highest parse to upload.

A GOOD raid leader takes in a multitude of factors, not just "the color of the parse" and if they have "better gear" They look to see where their players should be in terms or ranking better within their own party composition. Is this a fight where a monk may not perform as well due to certain mechanics? Is this strategy working out well? Is there a latency issue with a particular instance that is affecting the player?

Now using the analysis data is better (but it seems most people don't do that - and seeing the responses in this thread...) you can see if you're messing up on a part of your rotation, if something is clipping- which people don't understand this concept well. The problem is, that it takes a longer time and more thought to process "for a video game" and people just go to the color of a parse from other uploads.


That said, it's a great tool to help improve your DPS and learn where you can correct your mistakes. If it helps you improve it's great that's what it's for. Mediocrity is just also just looking at one "standard" or set of data and using that as a basis. Because you didn't bother to understand what those tools were for. - and that mediocrity is DEFINITELY a community problem.

Tl;Dr people not actually understanding the tools they're using for their argument.

While I agree with your post entirely, I don't think it's just community driven. I'm a believer that the developers are not encouraging the drive/will to learn in even base content and are allowing less than average effort to be rewardable.

[Nedkel]

Under what preface do you declare I have no experience with HW or SB content? Where is this assumption's proof?

Magic <10chars>

[Valic]

Magic <10chars>

As I thought. You don't know. Or like many of the people who take parsing and fflogs as if it's the bible itself, they assume if there's no record on that site, they haven't done it. Go figure huh? It's almost as if people may have alts they've done it on or perhaps they didn't/don't parse? WHO KNEW RIGHT?

I find it funny you were ready to jump on your high horse like you found the holy grail of arguments.

[xxvaynxx]

Under what preface do you declare I have no experience with HW or SB content? Where is this assumption's proof? Also what does any of your post have to do with anything going on in this thread?



I am. I agree, but parse is a % of playerbase and this is also under the assumption I'm talking about specifically savage/ex content. This is also the assumption that you're required to have colorful parses to clear content. This is just as incorrect. My whole point in this thread is that in standard content, at this point where we are now able to be level 80, every plyer should know how to do 1. mitigate as a tank. 2. understand aoe heals and regular healing 3. DPS understand a basic 1v1 rotation and an aoe rotation. And 4. General marker understanding such as knowing what a stack marker is and what a "this will hurt anyone near me" marker is. You're going into this thread assuming I'm talking about hardcore content, to which I am not.

My claim is that SE's presenting the standard to progress normally/casually in this game as very very low. Things that required a player to square up such as the role quest before the ending of ShB MSQ that at least demand the player knows how to move/dodge/stack.... is now capable of being done on "easy" and "very easy". This presents the idea that it is okay to not learn.

It says you joined june 2017, the same time as Stormblood. So you have no experience in HW raiding (unless you made a whole different account for some reason) and maybe even SB but you said you have an alt so eh. Can't deny that because I know people that make alts in different data centers to clear ultimate.

But anyway your thread said for ANY CONTENT. Not just casual, also having good percentile to clear content isn't required...well at least late game where everybody has their gear but it is required to join a serious group that cares about clearing things efficiently.

Personally I don't care how people play, the casual content is easy enough for people not to try.
But I do think its pretty backwards that you don't like people being mediocre but you'll allow people to be sub optimal as long as they have the basics of the job....actually rather ROLE.
Why take a step when you can run the mile.

[Mahoukenshi]

It says you joined june 2017, the same time as Stormblood. So you have no experience in HW raiding (unless you made a whole different account for some reason) and maybe even SB but you said you have an alt so eh. Can't deny that because I know people that make alts in different data centers to clear ultimate.

But anyway your thread said for ANY CONTENT. Not just casual, also having good percentile to clear content isn't required...well at least late game where everybody has their gear but it is required to join a serious group that cares about clearing things efficiently.

Personally I don't care how people play, the casual content is easy enough for people not to try.
But I do think its pretty backwards that you don't like people being mediocre but you'll allow people to be sub optimal as long as they have the basics of the job....actually rather ROLE.
Why take a step when you can run the mile.

Your player account and forum account are two entire different things. This means that the OP could have played since ARR, HW or whenever and had only decided to make their fourm account in June 2017.

[Valic]

It says you joined june 2017, the same time as Stormblood. So you have no experience in HW raiding (unless you made a whole different account for some reason) and maybe even SB but you said you have an alt so eh. Can't deny that because I know people that make alts in different data centers to clear ultimate.

But anyway your thread said for ANY CONTENT. Not just casual, also having good percentile to clear content isn't required...well at least late game where everybody has their gear but it is required to join a serious group that cares about clearing things efficiently.

Personally I don't care how people play, the casual content is easy enough for people not to try.
But I do think its pretty backwards that you don't like people being mediocre but you'll allow people to be sub optimal as long as they have the basics of the job....actually rather ROLE.
Why take a step when you can run the mile.

No, it says this account joined these forums. Again with the assumptions. As for your comment, that is in regards to joining the standards of a hardcore static group. Competency at a level where you're seeking individuals who go above and beyond is a given.. Obviously to be a hardcore raider, it would suggest you know how to do mechanics as well as know your job. As far as pugging, learning, going into the content fresh/new though?... This game isn't helping that learning curve by making things easier. The biggest issue is as exactly you said.


"Personally I don't care how people play, the casual content is easy enough for people not to try."

Exactly.

Anything beyond that that, you're just misinterpreting my post. There's a fine line between optimization and at the very least understanding how to play. The latter is being very "hand holdy" with a lot of our content. I'm not going to be the player that demands you do everything perfectly or suffer the penalty, or even demand you HAVE to use every single ability in every fight you do.... Again, I understand hardcore content is one segment of this game, and not everyone's flavor. However, a bare minimum to progress in normal content should set the standard to progress. If a player is starting new, they should be introduced to multiple scenarios that challenge them and have the player understand "oh, I lose if I don't blank". We are severely lacking in that and thus, do we see many players who do less than minimum for their job in even casual content because hey... as you said, it dies/died right? Then who cares? I believe savage/hardcore content should be for those ready for the ultimate challenge to optimize and recognize, practice, train, etc... But casual content. I believe you should still have some form of line that says "you cannot cross this line until you blank successfully" otherwise... everything is a training dummy you just wail on until you get your reward. What did you learn out of the mechanics it provided or the things you had to do with your job? Nothing, because you can plow through it without thinking.


To give you an example. I just did my 50/60/70 roulette, got shallow's compass. We had a GNB, MCH, and a BLM, then me as an AST. The 2nd boss, does an aoe he telegraphs with an orange marker, which every player by now should be able to recognize that means get out of the blast right? This boss drops that marker, then trails several aoe's after following the player he placed that orange marker under. The pattern/idea is that you dodge the first drop, then keep running to avoid continuous hits in succession or you will die. The BLM, being a sprout, does not move out of the orange marker and even stayed for every hit of it somehow. He didn't pop manaward, I tossed him a regen and nothing more. What was the result? He lived, keeps dps'ing, nothing haults him, there's no punishment other than the meme "healers adjust". Imo, being hit by the initial aoe that was marked for a good 5 seconds should hurt to begin with, staying in those hits itself should result in death, causing the player to lose their rotation or at the very least, we have weakness for a hot minute. No though, he can do this and there's no punishment for it other than the healer has to keep him going I guess? There's no dps check to see "hey, is everyone alive? Are they strong enough to take this down?" There's probably no reason they have to move quite frankly because it will carry on without a problem and they will receive their reward as expected.

As for every pull there on? The tank did fine with a regen, never needed anything more. Segments that had 6+ enemies up at once, our BLM and GNB would single target dps instead of aoe.... Imo being swarmed by several monsters at once should require you to kill them at once rather than one by one. This goes by just fine though, as the damage they do is negligible and there's no punishment if they don't aoe it other than maybe just a longer pull time I guess? The challenge or demand in skill? None, just 1-2-3 it and claim the reward after beating the final boss. Meanwhile we had a dungeon in called Temple of Qarn in ARR where if you refuse to dps down those bee's, they one shot. This either required high aoe damage (which not mny jobs posses even at that level) or focused single target priority until you could safely aoe. This is a great mechanic concept because it introduces the idea of priority. Jump to Thordan's battle in HW.... It's a joke. He hits 1% before he even begins "the phase" and every mechanic that happens during the phase is basically immediately shut down. Meanwhile Nabriales in ARR is another good example of trial that requires competence... The orb phase will wipe the party if they refuse to block the orbs from him and the sprite causes slow on players further allowing this. Then to boot, tanks have to take meteors toward the end and dps need to focus on the meteor falling. This introduces urgency and the need to mitigate or at least understand some mechanics. The tank is also required to mitigate or get healed VERY quickly if they don't through triple cast tank buster. I like concepts like this, they shouldn't be nerfed down or need to be easier. We should have solo content that doesn't have the option to be "very easy" or "easy" but instead demands what those instances dish out. That tells the player, "hey, you're this far into the third expansion, I'ma show you that arm's length is super useful and also remember how to do stack markers". Unfortunately, it's only getting marginally easier and less is required as a group to do things like this. Going higher in content should present more of these examples, not less of it. That's why I didn't mind tank busters being introduced in expert dungeons as of late. It demands the tank understands how to pull or how to mitigate, or they wipe, as well as priority. I hope we get more of that and less complaints about it, I also hope it creates the gap in the average individual vs the more advanced individual who has learned their kit. Your reward? Not wiping. Though this is still only seen as a time reward thing and can just as easily be done without much thought process so long as you just go in just pressing 1-2-3 to your leisure with as few enemies or as many as you like.

Having speed shouldn't be the objective. Being able to overcome the challenge presented should be... It's also why I REALLY appreciated The Burn when it was current, especially for the final boss. I would argue that's my favorite dungeon, solely because each boss requires you to learn/recognize a pattern or you will be punished for it. Not too much the first 2 bosses, but the final boss, definitely at the time.

Your player account and forum account are two entire different things. This means that the OP could have played since ARR, HW or whenever and had only decided to make their fourm account in June 2017.

This. For the longest time I didn't even know these forums existed and just used reddit instead and even then I wasn't really looking out of game at websites for this game often.