In Defence of DPS meters.

[Paidhi]

It seems from all the other MMOs I've played FF is the only current major MMO on the market where a fair amount of the player base seems to struggle with competency. From WoW, to ESO, to GW2, people seem to be able to take the 5 min needed to learn their class and read the tool tips more often then not.

That being said Third party or not, people will always be idiots when it comes down to these things. Removing the use of ACT outright will change nothing, Adding one will change nothing. As hard or as messed up as it sounds, people that seem to always be on the bad end of parsing situation should learn to play their job and the game as everyone else who currently plays and clears endgame has if they want to participate in end game anything really.

lets say we give Timmy an ingame SE sanctioned dps meter, that doesnt stop Timmy from not knowing his rotation and not wanting to change that and self improve. Timmy doesn't care about that and thinks hes fine, the people in the group my be willing to tolerate him if hes doing okish, and if hes not he'll be removed. The same if said people are using third party parsers. The issue is not application based its community based.

When you look at WoW, we have Recount, Details, Skada Damage Meter, all filled with all the essential things needed for a raider to see whos doing what needs to be done for a potential clear. When someone wants to bash or mistreat players they're reported, they are suspended or banned, problem solved.

The tool is never at fault because it can only tell facts, what you do with those facts is the issue, People NEED to be willing to improve within FFs community, removing or adding a meter will change nothing so long as this remains the issue.

Well, as long as you can play with the players you wish to do so, it does not matter. You are not to decide how other players want to play the game, it is their free time and their subscription. Now, if you are talking about a "personal" meter, then what will happen is that the forums will be flooded with "my job is nerfed, buff it". We've all seen it in others MMOs, no need to repeat it here. I would say FF is quite successful as it is, and more important, it is growing.

[ReiMakoto]

Well, as long as you can play with the players you wish to do so, it does not matter. You are not to decide how other players want to play the game, it is their free time and their subscription. Now, if you are talking about a "personal" meter, then what will happen is that the forums will be flooded with "my job is nerfed, buff it". We've all seen it in others MMOs, no need to repeat it here. I would say FF is quite successful as it is, and more important, it is growing.

People already ask for buffs and nerfs based on the 3rd party information that we already have so nothing changes there. Also I disagree to an extent, this is a multiplayer game, there comes a time when how you want to play the game clashes with the other 3 people in a dungeon and especially in a game as rigid as ffxiv wanting to be freestyle or play your own way will almost always mean youre dragging down other people, and honestly I think its inherently selfish to not know what youre doing and "play your own way" at the detriment of other players.

[Paidhi]

I think its inherently selfish to not know what youre doing and "play your own way" at the detriment of other players.

Don't play with them then, you are not forced to do so. And you are assuming that detrimental = bad performance. I personally prefer healing a decent tank with a good attitude, than an imba tank who is a jerk.

[ForteNightshade]

Well, as long as you can play with the players you wish to do so, it does not matter. You are not to decide how other players want to play the game, it is their free time and their subscription. Now, if you are talking about a "personal" meter, then what will happen is that the forums will be flooded with "my job is nerfed, buff it". We've all seen it in others MMOs, no need to repeat it here. I would say FF is quite successful as it is, and more important, it is growing.

It is also my time and subscription. And when it comes to Savage their lackluster perform can be a liability. Why am I obligated to compensate for someone who isn't considerate enough to care about anyone else's time but their own? As for flooding the forums. Have you looked at the job section? That's typically what people talk about there; jobs being either underpowered or disliking the design choices made. A personal DPS wouldn't have any impact on that save to give players a more accurate assessment of their jobs capability. Why is having more information a bad thing? Coincidentally, FFlogs is more or less accurate regardless. So once again, this already exists.

And more than half the growing raid community uses third party tools the devs look the other way about. Meanwhile, other players who genuinely want to improve or simply have no idea they're doing anything wrong, thus wonder why they might be kicked from a PF either get these same third party tools or don't even know they exist. SE's stance is to keep everyone in the dark and hope it works. It hasn't.

[Paidhi]

It is also my time and subscription. And when it comes to Savage their lackluster perform can be a liability. Why am I obligated to compensate for someone who isn't considerate enough to care about anyone else's time but their own? As for flooding the forums. Have you looked at the job section? That's typically what people talk about there; jobs being either underpowered or disliking the design choices made. A personal DPS wouldn't have any impact on that save to give players a more accurate assessment of their jobs capability. Why is having more information a bad thing? Coincidentally, FFlogs is more or less accurate regardless. So once again, this already exists.

And more than half the growing raid community uses third party tools the devs look the other way about. Meanwhile, other players who genuinely want to improve or simply have no idea they're doing anything wrong, thus wonder why they might be kicked from a PF either get these same third party tools or don't even know they exist. SE's stance is to keep everyone in the dark and hope it works. It hasn't.

Again, don't play with them if you don't want to feel obligated to compensate. Are they forcing you to play with them?. Are they forcing you to play worse than you like? Get into a hardcore FC and raid there if that's the only thing that makes you happy. It is really that simple. Understand that for many players what matters is a)to play decently well and b)have fun while doing it. Nothing else. They don't need a meter telling them they have to improve a particular rotation, or choose another job to get 300 an extra dps. And they are not telling you to "relax", so don't tell them to "improve".

[Angus-Beef]

Again, don't play with them if you don't want to feel obligated to compensate. Are they forcing you to play with them?. Are they forcing you to play worse than you like? Get into a hardcore FC and raid there if that's the only thing that makes you happy. It is really that simple. Understand that for many players what matters is a)to play decently well and b)have fun while doing it. Nothing else. They don't need a meter telling them they have to improve a particular rotation, or choose another job to get 300 an extra dps. And they are not telling you to "relax", so don't tell them to "improve".

Ok so Lets assume everyone here goes and joins an FC and finds a static, etc, and they no longer pug. How do you expect the people who wants to *have fun* to clear the content they wanna clear and not self improve?. Fights like Titan are unclearable if people have too many deaths atm, you won't make the dps check no matter how over geared you are, and if you're not dead but you're a BLM doing only 6k and your other DPS can't compensate because they're equally underperforming how do they clear, where is the fun in wiping for several pulls and not getting past phase 1 in hades?

At that point they're not even running savage or EX anymore, they can't see past phase 1 and every competent player is no longer pugging because as you said, they shouldn't play with theese people. You now have several issues to deal with not only as a community, but SE as a developer and Yoshi P as the lead of this game, people can't clear and they'll say the game is too hard, vs the real issue people needing to improve. Like it or not, simply telling people to *not play with others* will change nothing.

As per only *getting 300 extra dps* no in a lot of cases is very staggering how many pugs underperform at the baseline, people should be able to at least manage 10k flat and barely do that. If people learned they're rotations they can see up to 14-16k if not more with proper alignment and knowledge of the classes you have in any given run. The lack of this knowledge and people such as yourself refusing it is why from 5.0-5.1, the content has been fairly dumbed down, Yoshi P himself wanted to make Titania EX harder, and guess what he had to NOT do that for the sake of people not being able to actually perform.

In the end, I will repeat to drive this point home, If people in this community want to get rid of ACT so bad, Improve, Theres no Ifs, and, ors, buts, just Improve. If thats not for you, stay away from Save and EX, there plenty of other optional content for people to do that requires no competentcy.

[Paidhi]

Ok so Lets assume everyone here goes and joins an FC and finds a static, etc, and they no longer pug. How do you expect the people who wants to *have fun* to clear the content they wanna clear and not self improve?

Here is the problem, which is assuming that people will stop doing PUGs just because they want to clear the maximum amount of content. That's what some players will do, but many will not, because they value socialization and casual fun over pure game achievement.

[Angus-Beef]

Here is the problem, which is assuming that people will stop doing PUGs just because they want to clear the maximum amount of content. That's what some players will do, but many will not, because they value socialization and casual fun over pure game achievement.

Then THEY should stay away from pugs that are there for learning and clearing fights. PUGGING is not for the nuggets who don't want learn and improve and just *have fun*, at that point they're the ones encrouching on people who *have fun* By clearing.

So lets sum this up, look at everything we've all said to you, and let the people who don't want to clear know to stay out of Savage and EX parties from now. And when this community is segregated, have fun with the ones who can't clear anything, and enjoy them complaining about content being too hard. And just to bring it back on point of this thread topic, They'll never had to see a damage meter 3rd party or other wise ever again.

Problem solved yeah?

[Paidhi]

Yeah, it is really that simple. And there is no need to use the future tense. This separation between hardcore and casual communities did, does and will always exist, because they look for different things in the game. Not better or worse, just different.

[ForteNightshade]

Again, don't play with them if you don't want to feel obligated to compensate. Are they forcing you to play with them?. Are they forcing you to play worse than you like? Get into a hardcore FC and raid there if that's the only thing that makes you happy. It is really that simple. Understand that for many players what matters is a)to play decently well and b)have fun while doing it. Nothing else. They don't need a meter telling them they have to improve a particular rotation, or choose another job to get 300 an extra dps. And they are not telling you to "relax", so don't tell them to "improve".

This is quite the Strawman you're building. If you think people care about a meager 300 DPS, you clearly don't understand the issue. Playing decently is a Samurai pulling roughly 14,000 rDPS in full i470. Maybe a little less. No one will bat an eye seeing those numbers. If said Samurai can't even break 10,000. They're essentially doing tank damage, which isn't "playing decently" it's downright garbage. They are actively hindering the group as a whole because if everyone shared their mentality, you wouldn't be able to clear.

What makes me "happy" is clearing content efficiently. I couldn't care less if you're super optimized but if you're doing half the damage you should be, you have no business being in Savage. Fortunately, I don't have to play with these people as my magic abacus lets me decide if I should eject them from it or leave myself. What does suck is there are several people who want to improve yet have no idea how because the game offers no information. I've even meant players who were stunned their damage was so low. And quite thankful when I linked them guides.

Angus summarized it pretty well. If all the players who "played decently" kept to their own circles, you'd never clear anything.