Is 'Hydaelyn' a misnomer based on a misconception?

[Lersayil]

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Just to quickly clarify, I did not mean to imply that Zodiark and Hydaelyn are anything more than immensely powerful aetherial constructs. They were created by more sophisticated and controlled methods than our new primals, thus its possible that there are some rules or flaws (that stem from the improper method of creation used today) that don't apply to them. I think Emet just found it tiresome to explain such differences on the spot, thus used the blanket term "primal".

As for the tempering part, I think its still a possibility that the WoL is tempered. We are just now starting to scratch the surface of what tempering is in the story. We know very little, and even less about what being tempered by one such as Zodiark would mean.

There is a theory floating around about Zodiark and Hydaelyn representing control vs freedom, and that somehow manifesting in their form of tempering. I find this to be probable, but I would prefer if they didn't take this road.

[MikkoAkure]

Hmm, no, I think for the term 'god' to mean anything, it has to connote a being outside the created order, upon whom the created order is dependent. I don't think FF has ever posited the existence of such a being(s) in any of its iterations. The games generally take an anti-theistic stance, wherein supposed gods turn out to be in some manner fraudulent, or outright malevolent. I don't see XIV being an exception to this.

FFXI, which at least early FFXIV was based on, had Altana. She was an unambiguously good true goddess and like Hydaelyn, is connected to the Mothercrystal. In FFXI, Altana split the Mothercrystal into shards which sundered paradise and created the world we know now as Vana'diel. Sounds very familiar to Hydaelyn shattering the world into shards.

[Lauront]

I actually think the tempering element is the one thing that could make me lose interest in the Ascian plotline - their motives and story are good without it and provide enough grounds for understandable conflict. If Zodiark acts as a means of amplifying their power and achieving their goals, fine, that works, but there's enough to suggest they're tempered in the sense that they're subjugated to his will, which to me strips away a lot of the complexity in the story. Likewise, Hydaelyn, having done what she was intended to do, will be superfluous and in fact I'd say that the pair of them have left the world in a truly detrimental state, where the Source is thinned out and weaker than other worlds in the Rift, and she probably contributes to the on-going dilution of souls in the Lifestream, most likely to sustain her own being, because Primals don't run on thin air - this would be an issue even if the Ascians were not causing mischief, because extrinsic invaders to the world are not unprecedented; imagine if they'd happened on the Source when it was still at 1/14th of its original self. So if he goes, she can take a hike as well. "Mother" is not needed.

Just to quickly clarify, I did not mean to imply that Zodiark and Hydaelyn are anything more than immensely powerful aetherial constructs. They were created by more sophisticated and controlled methods than our new primals, thus its possible that there are some rules or flaws (that stem from the improper method of creation used today) that don't apply to them. I think Emet just found it tiresome to explain such differences on the spot, thus used the blanket term "primal".

As for the tempering part, I think its still a possibility that the WoL is tempered. We are just now starting to scratch the surface of what tempering is in the story. We know very little, and even less about what being tempered by one such as Zodiark would mean.

There is a theory floating around about Zodiark and Hydaelyn representing control vs freedom, and that somehow manifesting in their form of tempering. I find this to be probable, but I would prefer if they didn't take this road.

Going from Emet-Selch's dialogue in the French version, it really seems to be nothing but the Primal integrating its summoners into its "energy" array and having them spread their element/energy. This is consistent with the speculation by the Scions and Beq Luqq that tempering may resolve to how strongly aspected an individual becomes to a specific element - the Primal overloads it to their own element in the hopes of subjugating the summoner into doing their will. The fact that Ramuh tempers even when he intends not to do so, suggests that that part is inherent in them manifesting. Most probably do see themselves as gods and, like most gods, intend to spread their dominion and have a ready means to do so via tempering. The reason Sin Eaters and Voidsent appear uncoordinated by contrast is because they only represent the elemental/energy overload but it's not perpetrated by a Primal. For Hydaelyn not to have tempered her summoners, even a little, would require she is somehow an exception to the rule. Although much is made of Zodiark's might relative to her, I think it's relevant to point out that he was summoned from 75% of the remaining populace at the time and not necessarily 75% of the world's population as such; so even if she was summoned with a comparatively smaller group, that still may well have sufficed to temper the individual summoners in the process, as occurred with the Convocation. And I think the Echo represents the tempering which allows the soul to persist even through the Lifestream's "corrosive" effects and also provides a node for the shard souls to return to if a world is rejoined/they decide to merge.

The way I expect they will write it is that the Convocation did not expect Zodiark to temper at the time, because any summons they were used to up to that point either consumed the life energies of the summoner wholesale, or were extremely minor in comparison to a project of that scale - and that the plan to sunder him came about when he tempered the Convocation, inadvertently (?) shattering the entire world in the process when their fighting dragged out. Elidibus states that it was intended that the entire affair would wipe clean any memory of the ancient world, which it appears to have done, but what I wonder is whether it was always the plan or whether it was just deployed when matters escalated to the Sundering.

I don't think it's wrong to say we are tempered. Some might think so, but only because we have been conditioned to view tempering as a bad thing, instead of something potentially helpful. Besides free will is subjective. Just like in the real world what is viewed as "free will" varies depending on the subject, and as we know most things defy logic on a daily basis.

It really depends on whether the Primal actively uses it to spread its domain. If it does, it renders the tempered susceptible to its will. I was hoping they would write it in such a way that the unsundered (and a rejoined, sundered soul, like the WoL's) may simply have their motivations tilted in a particular direction but not overridden, such that they could refuse to obey in principle, but I'm not sure they're going for this direction. I'd like to be wrong on it, though - Emet leaves the word "subjugated" in quotation marks, but that can be read many ways.

This is all speculation but, based on the information I have right now, I feel like it's an elegant solution. Both Zodiark and Hydaelyn are 'wrong things' with agendas that are not ultimately beneficial to the star, and we somehow have to merge them or send them back where they came from. Or both

That's possible, and it may be that they write Zodiark in that vein, i.e. that he does not covet simply expanding his domain, and that his destruction was sought after because Hydaelyn's summoners disagreed with the Convocation's final plans. Meaning he would not pose an inherent threat - he was simply undertaking a request made upon him, and his supposed counter-balance turned on him, leading him to react in the violent way a Primal would to a threat to its power, thus they fought. Really, there is nothing thus far to suggest that he was covetous for power or some manner of blood god. The Convocation intended to return everything to how it was before the Sound and that's where the disagreement centered, since that would entail a final stage of sacrifice. We've yet to see it confirmed that he demanded ever more aether or souls, and nothing but Hydaelyn's word to go on. She is intended by design to obscure the truth of the ancient world, so "more evidence is needed" is my current position on Zodiark's nature.

[Lersayil]

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These are all assumptions made from current day primals though, if I'm not mistaken? All of the current day primals (that we know of) were summoned via means provided by Ascians. As such, the rituals provided may have built in "faults" that would further the goals of the Ascian agenda. I.e. the constant consumption of vast amounts of aether, or the built in feature of "hard" tempering individuals independent of the primals intention. Naturally its also possible that these issues are due to the inherent incompetency of the new races.

This kind of loops back to my previous musings about the limitations of Creation magic. Mainly about the difference between a living being and primals, and the necessary supply of aether, both for creation and later maintaining.

Anyways, just trying to say that we are lacking way too much information about Zodiark and Hydaelyn, and that we should be careful to make assumptions about them, based on the other primals we know of.

[Lauront]

They are, but if you read the French version of Emet-Selch's comments on tempering, it is hard to deny that there are not strong similarities in the process, to what is observed e.g. with Sophia and her worshipers, who like the Ascians don't come across as mindless drones but are certainly tempered. I'm quite careful in stating that I am working from assumptions, so I am open to them turning out to be wrong, but I can see this as a possible direction they might take with the story. They have left some wriggle room here in that he states "subjugated", but is that him saying 1) it's not what is really happening or is it 2) because he dislikes the term? This, specifically, does sound like "hard" tempering:

Emet-Selch : C'est ainsi que les Asciens sont devenus les courroies de transmission de l'énergie de Zordiarche, mon jeune ami ! Notre existence n'a qu'un seul but : amplifier et étendre la part de Ténèbres dans l'univers tout entier.

= “That’s how the Ascians became the energy transmission belts of Zordiark, my young friend! Our existence has only one purpose: to amplify and extend the part of Darkness in the whole universe.” (This ain’t translating too well but I *think* the idea is pretty clear.)

The English version has similar wording but I think it's even starker in the French version and adds in that part about the energy, which again ties into info we got in 5.1. I'm in agreement that we know too little about either of Zodiark or Hydaelyn right now to say too much about their true nature - and perhaps they're necessary to stave off the return of the Sound, depending on its cause - so, I'll leave that as a possibility too. You are definitely correct that the Ascians may have taught defective forms of summoning to the sundered, lesser races or that for whatever reasons, they can't execute the summoning as competently without Creation magicks, but we will see.

Of course, if there is the possibility of denying the impulse to obey the imperative of the tempering for a being of sufficient power, it may not qualify as "hard tempering", if the usual variant does not allow for this.

[Lersayil]

Oh the irony... yeah I remember that line. Found it sort of funny, seeing as he was spreading light all this expansion.

I agree it was kind of a strange line, given how... intricate his actions are? He was also heavily emphasizing the saving of his people over the zealous darkness stuff most of the time. I guess its possible that tempering in these cases is more of a compelling sort of effect, and it can be more subtle, without overwriting the whole of the subjects will?

But yeah. Overall I'd also prefer if they wouldn't strip any agency from the Ascians. It might be an interesting whammy on the WoLs part, but it could cheapen Emets story by a lot.

[Cilia]

Hydaelyn isn't allowing humanity to operate independently, though. She actively allows those she has empowered to head off into the world and use their enhanced abilities to overthrow whoever they so please. In some cases it is justified in the name of putting down world ending threats. In other cases, however, it stifles the natural course of humanity's history - especially when the Warrior of Light starts to slay people over political differences.

To allow the equivalent of an empowered soldier to dictate who rises to the top of society is not a case of allowing humanity to dictate its own fate. Especially when we know that they are not immune to bias.

Do you have an example that does not involve Ascians in some way, shape, or form? If not, your argument is very weak.

[Elladie]

These discussions are always so fascinating, I love them. Or at least I do when people are civilised - as most are on the lore forums - and engage in a healthy and respectful exchange of ideas.

I get what you're saying, Cilia, about Hydaelyn as Mother. I hadn't thought of it in that way. But I still can't shake the sense I have of her being like a broken AI or something. She did what she supposed to do, stop more sacrifices, but I wonder if the cost paid was a shock to her summoners? I mean, basically she killed her creators by sundering them. I know there have been discussions about how much the Sundered remember, but my hunch is nothing since the Unsundered had to reinvoke memories in the broken Ascian members of the Convocation. I may have that wrong, of course, but that's the impression I have.

Hydaelyn just feels like an advanced version of an Allagan drone (very advanced) that's a bit confused about where its maker has gone and not quite sure what to do so just keeps going with its original program. She even sounds like a garbled AI in Heavensward. I remember doing the Praetorium for the first time and wondering why she was so obsessed with just one thing. She literally never talks about anything else ever. It is creepy and a bit insane-sounding, and so I have always been wary of her. All the revelations that have come since have only deepened this for me. Which is why I say I hope there's some convincing story telling on the way if she is going to turn out to be Mother. I know they can pull it off because I loathed Solus in SB. Absolutely loathed him. But I loved Emet-Selch

[Lauront]

Oh the irony... yeah I remember that line. Found it sort of funny, seeing as he was spreading light all this expansion.

I agree it was kind of a strange line, given how... intricate his actions are? He was also heavily emphasizing the saving of his people over the zealous darkness stuff most of the time. I guess its possible that tempering in these cases is more of a compelling sort of effect, and it can be more subtle, without overwriting the whole of the subjects will?

But yeah. Overall I'd also prefer if they wouldn't strip any agency from the Ascians. It might be an interesting whammy on the WoLs part, but it could cheapen Emets story by a lot.

There's still a possible out, in terms of it being a "nudge" effect that they choose to act on, maybe because it it is beneficial to them in some way to act as an extension of the Primal in this way. It's not an inherently negative thing unless the Primal uses it to subvert the being's will, and this in turn hinges on its nature. We'll see if they take advantage of that possible out. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Elidibus as a testing ground for un-tempering a being, as opposed to being killed off.

[Lersayil]

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Actually, yeah, I can kind of see that AI part. That is how a magically advanced civilization would view a primal, wouldn't it? Hydaelyn and Zodiark being the pinnacle of such technology, basically created as "god" AIs or world management systems.

While I didn't find her lines as confused as you seem to have (possibly due to japanese voices?), she did sort of fit the "rigid management system" part.