Is 'Hydaelyn' a misnomer based on a misconception?

[Cilia]

Regardless of the degree of sophistication involved in their construction, the fact remains that they are not ontologically necessary, non-contingent beings upon which all non-contingent phenomena depends. They are themselves part of the created order. In fact, until contrary evidence emerges, I would hypothesise that these beings are not even capable of the sort of free exercise of creation that the Amaurotine engaged in. They may be extremely powerful, but in every way that matters, they're nought but false gods.



I think it most likely that you're correct, but I wouldn't be totally caught off-guard if it turned out that Hydaelyn engages in tempering. After all, we don't know what the subjective experience of being tempered is like. Perhaps when Hydaelyn was speaking to us, this was itself a symptom of tempering. As we know, though, she has grown weaker over the course of the game and no longer speaks to us, which may be a sign that her hold over us, and other WoLs has diminished, and they are able to act in ways contrary to her intent.

On the other hand, tempering has been shown to persist even when a Primal has been vanquished, so this theory probably doesn't hold water.

Actually, I would argue that due to the planet and everything living on it being split in fourteen when he was sundered, Zodiark is closer to a true god than Hydaelyn. Being an artificial god doesn't mean he's not a genuine one.

On the subject of tempering, Ifrit's inability to temper us and attributing it to us already having such a "blessing" strongly suggests that the Blessing of Light is a form of tempering. That said, if we operate under the (relatively fair) assumption that all of Hydaelyn's chosen have such a blessing, it doesn't seem to actually do anything other than provide a power boost when fighting enemies of the world (primals, Ascians, etc). The Echo is supposedly what vaccinates us against the influence of other primals, and others with the (partial) Blessing are even capable of rebelling against Hydaelyn. The slavish devotion present in the tempered followers of some other primals is completely absent.

[Eloah]

I think the statement was misleading, but not necessarily deliberately. I think that its just as you said: they are much better crafted primals. So much better in fact, that many rules we apply to run-of-the-mill primals don't apply to them. He was just using words that we can understand easily.

It does bring up some interesting questions about creation magic and its limits though. But thats for another thread.

I think the answer or the "alleged answer" lies in his choice of terminology. He refers to Zodiark and Hydaelyn as Primals, but he's a "Garlean" why wouldn't he use the term Eikon? We, as the player, know there is a difference, but regardless, both rely on a belief. A belief or a myth is all it takes to create a Primal/Eikon. The fact that there are monuments and images of him in other locations, that seem to "predate" the original stars destruction, hints that he existed well before his summoning, and that over time his legacy became what it is known as today.

It's both similar and different from two of the Primals we know of in creation, Garuda and Enkidu. Both existed, but overtime Garuda's "existence" was turned into what it is now, whereas Enkidu, an actual individual, was summoned from deep desire, with no "prior" myth behind them. The later of which works in supporting Hydaelyn's sudden existance. Though that would still take into account her actually "existing" in another form prior to summoning.

But this is all just speculation. Regardless, I don't think Emet-Selch lied about anything for two main reasons. One, though it's not said in game, he's the "Angel of Truth" in the Ivalice saga. I mean think about it, they could of used any other Scion of Light, but choose him; it's not like we knew his name prior to 5.0. And two, it was a big part of the reveal for 5.0. I doubt the devs would drop that on us if it was a lie. I mean, they could of outright told us what a Primal was in 2.X but let it linger, with some added mystery, until 3.0. And even then, there is still some air of mystery attached, even though the formula is kinda well known now.

On the subject of tempering, Ifrit's inability to temper us and attributing it to us already having such a "blessing" strongly suggests that the Blessing of Light is a form of tempering. That said, if we operate under the (relatively fair) assumption that all of Hydaelyn's chosen have such a blessing, it doesn't seem to actually do anything other than provide a power boost when fighting enemies of the world (primals, Ascians, etc). The Echo is supposedly what vaccinates us against the influence of other primals, and others with the (partial) Blessing are even capable of rebelling against Hydaelyn. The slavish devotion present in the tempered followers of some other primals is completely absent.

I think there are two ways we could view Hydaelyn's blessing, both of which are analogous to the Tempering by other Primals.

One way of looking at it is like a vaccine. When you get a vaccine, you get a mild case of the "disease" so that your body can build the antibodies needed to fight it off, preventing you from fully getting the disease. In that case the blessing is like tempering-lite, it allows our body to resist tempering but still has full control; and not be held up in bed for a week or life, lol?

The other way of looking at it might be a bit controversial, but think about tempering like an addiction. Regardless of anything else, everyone is addicted to something, but how bad that something is for you or how bad it is perceived by others varies, depending on the subject matter, and the other individuals' knowledge of it. All addictions change your brain chemistry, but to what degree varies. Coffee is an addiction most people have, can't start the day without it, need a pick me up, something; but coffee isnt viewed as "bad". But try replacing that with an alcoholic beverage and most people sing a different tune, despite the fact that both can be lethal.

This also could help explain to others why individuals who are already tempered by one Primal view the tempering of another as "wrong". Most people who don't understand an addiction view it as wrong. There are the common "bad ones" drugs, alcohol, stealing, but some mundane ones can be just as bad if someone doesn't understand them from their perspective; sports, video games, food, etc.

I don't think it's wrong to say we are tempered. Some might think so, but only because we have been conditioned to view tempering as a bad thing, instead of something potentially helpful. Besides free will is subjective. Just like in the real world what is viewed as "free will" varies depending on the subject, and as we know most things defy logic on a daily basis.

[purgatori]

Actually, I would argue that due to the planet and everything living on it being split in fourteen when he was sundered, Zodiark is closer to a true god than Hydaelyn. Being an artificial god doesn't mean he's not a genuine one.

Hmm, no, I think for the term 'god' to mean anything, it has to connote a being outside the created order, upon whom the created order is dependent. I don't think FF has ever posited the existence of such a being(s) in any of its iterations. The games generally take an anti-theistic stance, wherein supposed gods turn out to be in some manner fraudulent, or outright malevolent. I don't see XIV being an exception to this.

The fact that the Star was sundered along with Zodiark to me implies that Hydaelyn's attack did not discriminate between the Star itself, and the supposed 'will of the Star' (Zodiark). This in no wise suggests that the Star itself is dependent upon Zodiark: it was just caught in the crossfire between two Primals.

Hydaelyn isn't allowing humanity to operate independently, though. She actively allows those she has empowered to head off into the world and use their enhanced abilities to overthrow whoever they so please. In some cases it is justified in the name of putting down world ending threats. In other cases, however, it stifles the natural course of humanity's history - especially when the Warrior of Light starts to slay people over political differences.

To allow the equivalent of an empowered soldier to dictate who rises to the top of society is not a case of allowing humanity to dictate its own fate. Especially when we know that they are not immune to bias.

Agreed. I get the impression (from Dragonsong and elsewhere) that Hydaelyn has come to think of these 14x-diluted beings as her 'children,' and she doesn't want her children to 'grow up' (i.e., become unsundered), because then the relation would be reversed: she would be the 'child' (creation) of those who summoned her to begin with.

[Lersayil]

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Just to quickly clarify, I did not mean to imply that Zodiark and Hydaelyn are anything more than immensely powerful aetherial constructs. They were created by more sophisticated and controlled methods than our new primals, thus its possible that there are some rules or flaws (that stem from the improper method of creation used today) that don't apply to them. I think Emet just found it tiresome to explain such differences on the spot, thus used the blanket term "primal".

As for the tempering part, I think its still a possibility that the WoL is tempered. We are just now starting to scratch the surface of what tempering is in the story. We know very little, and even less about what being tempered by one such as Zodiark would mean.

There is a theory floating around about Zodiark and Hydaelyn representing control vs freedom, and that somehow manifesting in their form of tempering. I find this to be probable, but I would prefer if they didn't take this road.

[Theodric]

I have my doubts that Emet-Selch is lying about the nature of Zodiark and Hydaelyn. Unlike the other Ascians, he was pretty upfront about delivering uncomfortable truths. We saw it happening as much with his interactions with Varis as we did with his interactions with the Warrior of Light and Scions. He's also the reason why Y'shtola isn't dead, further cementing that his time with the protagonists was genuine. He's also tied to 'truth' as a general concept based on his naming conventions and his behaviour in-game.

[Kusanagi7]

as much as i enjoyed Emet i wouldn't say i fully trust everything he said afterall he was tempered by zodiark.

[Elladie]

as much as i enjoyed Emet i wouldn't say i fully trust everything he said afterall he was tempered by zodiark.

Could someone point me to the place in the MSQ where it's made clear the the WoL, Minfilia, Krile etc haven't been tempered by Hydaelyn?

[Deusteele]

If you're looking for a hard no about the possible of her having tempered the WoL or associates, we don't have that.

What we do have is logical inference. We have no known instances of anyone being tempered by Hydaelyn herself. Some tempered are able to display a degree of self control most seem to have no problem admitting to being tempered. See in particular Emet-Selch and the Anata from Ala Migho council quests.

We do know that the WoL from the first shard and WoL from the thirteen shard are able to act against what would be considered Hydaelyn's goals and motives while cooperating with Ascians. While as this is quite circumstantial, it is a decent amount of evidence that discredits the "Hydealyn Tempering" theory.

[Elladie]

If you're looking for a hard no about the possible of her having tempered the WoL or associates, we don't have that.

We do know that the WoL from the first shard and WoL from the thirteen shard are able to act against what would be considered Hydaelyn's goals and motives while cooperating with Ascians. While as this is quite circumstantial, it is a decent amount of evidence that discredits the "Hydealyn Tempering" theory.

In much the same way as Urianger co-operates with the Ascians during the WoDs arc? After all Unulkhai actually allies himself with us, doesn't he? I mean, when does he ally himself with the Ascians? Elidibus 'rescues' him but we never actually find out the motive for that, and Unulkhai more or less becomes a Scion after the Warring Triad. Or are you maybe thinking he's a double (triple?) agent?

The WoLs from the First were dead, it was their souls that plotted with the Ascians. Does tempering persist after death? When all the people tempered by Ifrit are reborn, are they still his willing slaves?

I mean, there is as much evidence to logically infer that Emet-Selch lied all along and neither Zodiark nor Hydaelyn are primals. Actually there's more evidence to infer that than to infer that Hydaelyn is a primal who doesn't temper her followers

[Rannie]

I mean, when does he ally himself with the Ascians? Elidibus 'rescues' him but we never actually find out the motive for that, and Unulkhai more or less becomes a Scion after the Warring Triad. Or are you maybe thinking he's a double (triple?) agent?

UNUKALHAI:

And as I lay dying, beaten and broken in my failed last stand, 'twas a white-robed Ascian who found my tormented spirit and bore me away to the rift betwixt worlds. Elidibus has been my master ever since.

And as I lay dying, beaten and broken in my failed last stand, 'twas my present master who found my tormented spirit and bore me away to the rift betwixt worlds. 'Twas he who first introduced me to Urianger.

At my mentor's feet did I learn of the nature of reality: of the existence of mirrored worlds and the eternal struggle between Dark and Light.

Sudden and overwhelming superiority for either side will shatter the balance, and the world in question will be returned to the void by a calamity beyond imagining.

As the self-appointed custodian of this balance, my master warned me that the Source─the first of all worlds─slips perilously close to oblivion.

Quest The Last Pillar to Fall... out of the veritable mouths of a babe.
Copied from Garlond Tools. Yes that kid may be fighting with us but it is for the sake of balance he is allied with the Ascians and is subservient to Elidibus. If he decides to defy him it has not been done yet.