FFXIV is just FFTA from the other perspective

[Lersayil]

By that argument Grahas world could've also decided to build upon their loss, survive, and continue figthing against the Ascian agenda, instead of pushing the time travel button and trying to save the past. Ascians aside we know that the Source already survived multiple calamities so its not impossible.

The argument isn't that Graha is as horrible or uncaring as the Ascians, but that on principle they made the same decision... and if the narrative presents this principle to be wrong, then it should be acknowledged on both sides in some form.

[YianKutku]

To reiterate the main point - which really does seem to be going unnoticed, or ignored, or something - no one is asking anyone to say 'wow the Ascians are the good guys after all!'.

Literally in this thread:

After finishing the Shadowbrigners MSQ if this was a game where the player had branching choices like a lot of aRPGs I'd be joining the Ascians.

[RicaRuin]

That - and the fact that Hydaelyn is shady as well - is why I hope we get a 'Third Path'. Aka, the option to support the Ascians' goal, but via finding a path that requires no bloodshed at all.

(My posts here might not show it, but I'm a big fan of the Ascians and would join them asap. It's just that even though liking them I have quite a problem with genocide...)

[Alleo]

By that argument Grahas world could've also decided to build upon their loss, survive, and continue figthing against the Ascian agenda, instead of pushing the time travel button and trying to save the past. Ascians aside we know that the Source already survived multiple calamities so its not impossible.

The argument isn't that Graha is as horrible or uncaring as the Ascians, but that on principle they made the same decision... and if the narrative presents this principle to be wrong, then it should be acknowledged on both sides in some form.

No it does not have to be both wrong if you take the moral complexity in it. The game for example does not show it as really bad that the Ancient ones summoned Zodiark to save their planet and thus needed sacrifice. It does show it as wrong that they continued to want unwilling sacrifice after the planet was safe.

The calamity was already 200 years gone but seemingly the world was still so worse (and I am sure that people tried to rebuilt it) that generations after us decided that the best course of action would be to change the past. It seems that the world was still dieing (which is not surprising since the gas did affect everything and even turned the soil bad). This is the difference! The Ascians got their world reborn, they had survived, the world was there to be rebuilt, it was whole and healthy. The future world after the 8th was not.

Real world example about same principle: Killing a person is the same no matter the situation, right? No, even in law there is difference thanks to the situation and intent behind it.

Kill someone in cold blood and you are seen as a bad person, kill someone in self defense in your own house when your life is at rist and it does not count as murder but self-defense. And if someone kills another to stop him from killing others then they are too seen as the hero and not the bad one. But in the end if you break it down, in each case you have taken a life. But the way it was done and why will change the perspective of it quite a bit.

[SannaR]

That - and the fact that Hydaelyn is shady as well - is why I hope we get a 'Third Path'. Aka, the option to support the Ascians' goal, but via finding a path that requires no bloodshed at all.

(My posts here might not show it, but I'm a big fan of the Ascians and would join them asap. It's just that even though liking them I have quite a problem with genocide...)

Okay this is the one thing I don't get when people are all Hydaelyn is bad/evil. When have we been shown that she's shady or done a Tataru evil lalafell grin behind our backs? Yes that grin made me stop fully loving and trusting Tataru. I mean we just helped her out while she went clamming. We say goodbye and both of us start walking away but she stops turns to look at us and gives us that creepy lalafell only grin. In that instant I was all ok she's tottally going to backstab us at some point. Though I want to say that was the moment she got her idea for the outfit she gets three people to tackle us so she can get our measurements, but still I haven't fully trusted her since then.

Now nowhere have I seen anything like that grin scene or something even less subtle when it comes to Hydaelyn. I'm not a legacy player so i don't know of every instance of her talking to us, but from what I know of her and her MO she comes off as a loving parent that just wants her children to live happy lives. Unfortunately she's had to deal with three guys who go out and recruit and or temper ten other people who's sole goal is to cause chaos just so they can ultimately try and get some of their friends back from maybe even the first few seconds post sundering.

[Lersayil]

snip

No offense but your example about killing isn't great for this case. If you want to apply it, it would be more appropriate to bring up the death penalty, or those hypothetical scenarios from psychopathy tests. I.e.: is it moral to kill one innocent to save 5 others?

It boils down to a simple question: is it worth to sacrifice the present of others to bring back the past? I argue that the answer to that question is a lot more important than the justifications. Why? Because the justifications don't matter to the unwilling, that gets sacrificed. In the end its just an excuse to oneself and the audience.

My own stance aside, the answer to that question is character defining by itself, and if the story goes with the narrative that the Ascains were wrong to do it, then in my view so was Graha (the opposite also applies naturally). He just had the benefit of being successful, being on our side, and conveniently achieving the effect with less suffering.

[MikkoAkure]

My own stance aside, the answer to that question is character defining by itself, and if the story goes with the narrative that the Ascains were wrong to do it, then in my view so was Graha (the opposite also applies naturally). He just had the benefit of being successful, being on our side, and conveniently achieving the effect with less suffering.

G’raha did what he did under different circumstances. The world 200 years in the bad future is one of constant war where Black Rose was way more successful than expected and most of the world’s population died and there’s no end in sight. Reversing that will save all the millions who died on The Source, save those who remained on The First, push back the clock on the Rejoining, and provide a proof of concept of taking the fight to the Ascians on the shards.

In regards to the other timeline, we have no idea how time travel works here and don’t know if the bad timeline gets overwritten. If it works anything like FFXI, both worlds co-exist until Atomos gets hungry but I guess that might be taken care of later.

Meanwhile, Emet-Selch has admitted himself that he’s tempered by a primal and at least to me it’s implied that Zodiark isn’t rejoining the worlds for the sake of the ascians so there’s no guarantee he’ll give his aether away to bring the world back. Say what you will about Hydaelyn but at least she hasn’t tempered us (according to the devs). Emet makes a compelling argument, but he isn’t necessarily doing what he thinks is right and his reasons for doing what he’s doing is compromised by the fact he’s controlled by his god.

The dev team themselves are surprised by how many people support the ascians which I think says enough about what’s planned for the future.

[Lersayil]

snip

To be fair, they only have themselves to blame. If they write the villains to be sympathetic, people will sympathize with them. *suprisedpikachuface*

Anyways, I'm not saying this to be pro-ascian. I am saying this because if they continue pushing the theme, that the past cannot be returned to (metaphorically speaking in this case), the dead cannot be resurrected, and that sacrifices made to that end are wrong and meaningless... then the current handling of Graha is either a writing mistake, or hypocrisy.

I guess the problem does go away if they drop that message though?

[myahele]

Okay this is the one thing I don't get when people are all Hydaelyn is bad/evil. When have we been shown that she's shady or done a Tataru evil lalafell grin behind our backs?

During HW many people became even more suspicious of Hydaelyn when she took over Minfilia's body. She knew of Y'shotola's Flow spell and asked Minfilia to go that area since it will take her to the Aetherial Sea. There Minfilia was alone and under a lot of stress when she eventually agreed to become the Word of the Mother. Granted, it was all Minfilia's decision.

It also doesn't help that the artwork at that time had Hydaelyn looking rather ominous with the chains she has wrapped around Minfilia.

[RicaRuin]

Okay this is the one thing I don't get when people are all Hydaelyn is bad/evil. When have we been shown that she's shady or done a Tataru evil lalafell grin behind our backs? Yes that grin made me stop fully loving and trusting Tataru. I mean we just helped her out while she went clamming. We say goodbye and both of us start walking away but she stops turns to look at us and gives us that creepy lalafell only grin. In that instant I was all ok she's tottally going to backstab us at some point. Though I want to say that was the moment she got her idea for the outfit she gets three people to tackle us so she can get our measurements, but still I haven't fully trusted her since then.

Now nowhere have I seen anything like that grin scene or something even less subtle when it comes to Hydaelyn. I'm not a legacy player so i don't know of every instance of her talking to us, but from what I know of her and her MO she comes off as a loving parent that just wants her children to live happy lives. Unfortunately she's had to deal with three guys who go out and recruit and or temper ten other people who's sole goal is to cause chaos just so they can ultimately try and get some of their friends back from maybe even the first few seconds post sundering.

No, Hydaelyn hasn't done anything 'bad' so far, but she has willingly withheld truths from us. Another thing is the fact that apparently she knew how the First suffered, but only stepped in when Arbert showed up, almost as if to assure us she's still the good one. So, shady in my book.

And what the post above me said.