a question for healers.

[Malmstrom]

Real talk, after a certain point, all trash pulls are inherently the same. So you can be as new to the dungeon as you wanna be (and i'd better be getting a bonus if that's the case), but its not anything really new. If you come into the dungeon with trash gear (e.g. less than HQ385 crafted in the example of Holminster Switch) that's your own fault and I'm absolutely gonna call you out for it. Maybe even leave rather than put up with you, depending on my mood. Kick you if its really a problem, although Square finally implementing a minimum item level mostly mitigated that.

Again, past a certain point you are absolutely not an inexperienced tank. People are gonna expect you to play like the level you are. Its why people tend to have more patience with the lvl 33 tanks making their way through brayflox than with the level 72 tanks single pulling the bear at the very beginning of Holminster.

So actually yeah, if youre leveled enough to be in a SB+ dungeon, i am going to expect you to know how to gear appropriately, tank trash and use cooldowns.

Got it. So you are, in fact, the reason why threads like this get made.

[Mavrias]

Got it. So you are, in fact, the reason why threads like this get made.

Nah, i don't pull ahead. I ask for larger pulls, and if the tank refuses to try then i leave. Bad tanks are the reason threads like this are made tbh.

[miraidensetsu]

Got it. So you are, in fact, the reason why threads like this get made.

And why tank anxiety exists.

[Shalan]

I'm going to push back and say tank anxiety is more a symptom of people making it out to be much more difficult than it really is.
It's not a difficult role to play in the slightest, in fact I'd go so far as to say it's one of the easier roles to play in this game. Most all you have to do is hold threat and keep your gear up to date. And with your enmity generation being so heavily meshed into your rotation holding threat is a joke now, so it's mostly keeping gear up to date. Hyping it up as intense in FFXIV causes a hellouva lot more stress and anxiety than people expecting basic competency from tanks.

Don't coddle them. Sure, help them and offer advice if they're struggling, go easy on tanks in lower level content, but don't act like a tank in 71+ content is some poor sprout that's brand new to the game.

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

I don't care if they do small pulls or big pulls. It's when they get to the first group, stand there long enough to make you think they aren't going further, then decide to keep going after you've dropped your bubbles/aoe ground effects.

Or they pull inconsistently. Small pull. Big pull! Half and half.

EITHER GO ALL THE WAY OR DON'T.

Drives me up the wall.

^THIS. Nothing makes me more mad than popping a buff then having to waste most if not all of it sprinting.

I've seen a lot of what the OP is talking about cumulatively over the years. Respecting (or disrespecting) the Tank's pace is pretty much an on-going thing but I can see it slightly more of an issue now that enmity skills pretty much belong solely to tanks and there's no fear of getting punished (by Shirking) for pulling more than the tank can (or wants to) handle. Other than having all that enmity to yourself.

I've seen DPS do this more than Healers but I've seen Healers do it too--though its mostly WHMs nowadays because of their mass stun. I also see a lot more of Healers strictly using CD skills to heal to the point of letting people die or just ignoring tanks in favor of DPS in general. This is much worse now than its ever been and I feel like its a backlash due to overall healer homogenizing.

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

I think they're saying that describing oneself as being "new/inexperienced" as a tank by level 71 is funny, as they'll have hours upon hours of experience in playing that class/role by the time they're in ShB dungeons. Not that they're unfamiliar with dungeons/worried about their gears iLvl.

First--Jump Potions are a thing. They start you at level 70 now. So if you're doing Holminster it literally just means you did the Story far enough to get there since they give you exp for just reading dialogue. Although to be fair a Jump Tank is usually an easy spot very early on.

Second--as someone who has two tanks at level 70-71 but does not main them, obviously, most leveling does not require you to do much beyond hit something with your chosen weapon repeatedly. Fates, Deep Dungeon, HoH, Squadrons, Leves, Trusts--none of these really require a full toolkit and for people like me who want to level and not inflict ourselves on the general public, this is a good way to go about it. However that does not account for real practice in actual situations where Tank is the essential role--nor does it allow for learning what attacks you can and need to stun or enemy groupings or the overall layout of the dungeon.

So what they are saying is that if you're a high-level tank that attempts to run a dungeon in a manner in which they are comfortable with or at least practice more caution then just making the healer do more work because they're new to it or maybe did it once before, that is laughable because anyone who needs to learn or needs the experience is not worth anyone's time.

Please never que for leveling.

[Shalan]

First--Jump Potions are a thing. They start you at level 70 now. So if you're doing Holminster it literally just means you did the Story far enough to get there since they give you exp for just reading dialogue. Although to be fair a Jump Tank is usually an easy spot very early on.

I've said this somewhere before, but if someone uses a jump potion to skip ahead in the game, I fully expect them to read class guides and spend some time wailing on a dummy or mobs in the game. I'll still cut them some slack, but anything less shows a blatant lack of courtesy on their part to begin with when doing group content.

Second--as someone who has two tanks at level 70-71 but does not main them, obviously, most leveling does not require you to do much beyond hit something with your chosen weapon repeatedly. Fates, Deep Dungeon, HoH, Squadrons, Leves, Trusts--none of these really require a full toolkit and for people like me who want to level and not inflict ourselves on the general public, this is a good way to go about it. However that does not account for real practice in actual situations where Tank is the essential role--nor does it allow for learning what attacks you can and need to stun or enemy groupings or the overall layout of the dungeon.

Even in ShB dungeons the experience isn't particularly intense. The "need to stun abilities" are generally *very* telling, given that their flashing cast bars and notable visual tells (tethers, certain stances, etc.). Even then, most of them are survivable without stunning so it's not necessarily required, it just makes things easier. Most of the time layout just devolves into "don't stand in bad", and grouping is just... grouping? Ya know, line stuff up so you can AoE them.

These are things that you can learn in other roles aside from tanks and if you don't have them by ShB for whatever reason there's something up. All that's needed is a little awareness of your surroundings.

And while those don't require a full toolkit, they do have you use some of it, and you should at least pick up on some of the non-toolkit queues (enemy casts, LoS, grouping, etc.) from them.

So what they are saying is that if you're a high-level tank that attempts to run a dungeon in a manner in which they are comfortable with or at least practice more caution then just making the healer do more work because they're new to it or maybe did it once before, that is laughable because anyone who needs to learn or needs the experience is not worth anyone's time.

First off, what about what the others are more comfortable with? Why is it only the tank's comfort that matters in group content?

I've already stated multiple times that I'm not going to riff on a genuine new player, hell I won't riff on a struggling player in higher content. I'll do whatever I can to help ease them through and teach them anything they need, but I will laugh if someone tries to act like they're some fresh Gladiator taking their first step into Sashtasha when we're doing Holminster Switch. Or if someone comes into content woefully undergeared. Because that's unacceptable.

If I need to think about their wants/desires/feelings, they need to be doing the same for myself and the rest of the group. If they don't we're well within our rights to complain in an appropriate manner.

Please never que for leveling.

I don't really talk in dungeons unless someone needs help. I reserve and keep such opinions to myself to guarantee a better run, perhaps complaining in FC or Discord, but not always, and never with the person's name.
It's okay if I'm holding people to standards, even if you aren't willing to.

[Yorumi]

There's a phenomenon in MMOs that for some reason expecting any player to be able to press a button is a terrible burden to place on them. It stems from the "you can't tell me how to play" crowd which is really just a form of elitism. I think what a lot of people are trying to say is that in a party focused game at some point the most basic of competency can and should be expected. To reach the high levels you're going to need to put in dozens or more likely hundreds of hours even in this game with its fast levels. It's not unfair to suggest a high level player of any class should be able to perform at a competent level knowing how to use cooldowns, their kit, and handle mechanics.

This isn't an expectation of mastery but just a good god read your tool tips. Sure people can go overboard and be mean but that doesn't excuse the person who is failing from doing some self reflection and asking if they really could be doing something better. Specific to tanks I doubt there's that many people who literally only play tanks and nothing else to have never seen a larger dungeon pull. I'm just saying like others that it's not unfair to expect someone to learn just a little bit in 70+ levels of play in this game.

[Ardox]

Real talk, after a certain point, all trash pulls are inherently the same. So you can be as new to the dungeon as you wanna be (and i'd better be getting a bonus if that's the case), but its not anything really new. If you come into the dungeon with trash gear (e.g. less than HQ385 crafted in the example of Holminster Switch) that's your own fault and I'm absolutely gonna call you out for it. Maybe even leave rather than put up with you, depending on my mood. Kick you if its really a problem, although Square finally implementing a minimum item level mostly mitigated that.

Again, past a certain point you are absolutely not an inexperienced tank. People are gonna expect you to play like the level you are. Its why people tend to have more patience with the lvl 33 tanks making their way through brayflox than with the level 72 tanks single pulling the bear at the very beginning of Holminster.

So actually yeah, if youre leveled enough to be in a SB+ dungeon, i am going to expect you to know how to gear appropriately, tank trash and use cooldowns.

Real talk here: some people level their tank with beast tribes or side content. I have all jobs at 70 and I will get it to 80, but I never tanked the vault or Doma castle.

[Mavrias]

Real talk here: some people level their tank with beast tribes or side content. I have all jobs at 70 and I will get it to 80, but I never tanked the vault or Doma castle.

Good thing there's still beast tribes and other side content to get you to 80 then, eh? Rather than you putting yourself in content that you're unwilling to try to cooperate with the group in, I mean.

Quite frankly tanking the Vault or Doma Castle are no different than tanking, Stone Vigil. You simply have more tools to survive with.

I understand that tanking isn't everybody's thing, but honestly if you feel so uncomfortable with the prospect you should avoid group content where people may have expectations that you can play your job according to the level you have it at. Like hey if you're actively trying or asking for tips no one minds, but outright refusal with the excuse of "i'm new" tends to rub people the wrong way.