Pipe Dreams: Chemist

[Duelle]

Rather than rework the energy system I think it's important to realize the core kit surrounding the job you want to design, while WHM can feel somewhat lacking when it comes to what makes it unique (though some may argue Lillies), Scholars kit focuses Aetherflow, Shielding, and Fairies; Astrologian focuses on cards. The basic heals Cure, Physick, and Benefic respectively, don't interact with the jobs kit resource. As a result, one could feel that White Mage, Astrologian and Scholar are all capable of baseline healing without worrying about how it will affect their other mechanics. Reducing the energy costs will definitely make the job more functional, but basic healing shouldn't play into a jobs kit, in many instances, that kit isn't unlocked until level 30 anyway.

What I was talking about with "revisions" was stuff like adjustments to energy consumption or energy regen. Those are usually the bugbears with that sort of system.

If I understand what you're saying, the standard healer stuff (Basic Potion, Advanced Potion, Remedy Syringe, Phoenix Pinion) should solely interact with Energy but not have anything to do with Primers. I guess mechanically this could make sense, but on a concept level it stretches things a bit.

That all said, I don't think comparing AST cards to SCH shields/fairy is a fair comparison. The former is a gimmick, the latter is a gameplay element. AST losing the cards might yield some grumbles from AST mains at most, but SCH losing shields/fairy would make it unplayable and require a major redesign of the job. My goal was for the latter through the synergy between regular heals, Primers, and Catalysts.

Hmm. Well, it does make me think that - if they failed to prototype chemist once - geomancer or some other alternative might be more likely. Not because of overlap with AST, but just in its own right from having tried it.

My clashing with the way the devs do things shows in my saying this, but giving up because Mix could not be implemented as an ability does not count as "having tried it". By that logic SCH should never have come in because it would need to have Study/Peep/Scan or it has no identity. And that's obviously not what happened; the job was adjusted in accordance to in-world lore and given shields and a fairy. Seeing that other job gimmicks have seen mixed success (Jump, Black Magic and White Magic being the successes, Cover and Throw being among the not-so-successful), I'm of the opinion it's not something to get hung up on. Should we/the devs try to make the gimmicks work? Definitely. Should it be a stopping point in development if that doesn't work out or can't be implemented? No, it shouldn't be.

So, by the time 6.0 is here, it will have been 6 years between healer releases. That's assuming a healer *is* released in 6.0, which isn't a guarantee. 4 of those years will have seen SE going "but we want to balance the existing jobs before adding new ones." Do you really want to make that 8 years, with 6 being chasing balance? 10 and 8? Where do we stop?

The game's already spending a pretty significant portion of its lifecycle with no new content. And if you spend forever chasing the perfect incarnation/balance, you might never add anything new. Every argument against adding a new healer could be applied to adding a new tank, but we still got gunbreaker. And by all accounts, some people very much enjoy playing it.

The balance thing is either an excuse or a sign that the overall plan is to shift the design paradigm of healers before a new healer is introduced. I don't mind simplistic healer design, but seeing how certain jobs have been left with barebones systems (AST cards) or shit that's incomplete (Selene serving no purpose in current SCH design), I lean to the former. I also consider it a consequence of designing two jobs per expansion; with that formula you're gonna have someone left out, and with DPS players outnumbering tank and healer mains it not gonna be them.

[Crushnight]

And lastly, to both you and Crushnight: Do you really think we'll get out of the rut by never testing new ideas/jobs? By this sort of attitude, we might as well go back to 2 healers and 2 tanks and never try any other concepts again.

I never said not try anything new but you have to take in account Dev content, if your idea adds a 6 dps spell combo, it is very clearly against Dev intent where they want hlr dps abilities bare bones with no interaction etc.

If Chemist was being proposed in any other expansion (it was) I would support whole heartily but because how ShB healers are, I do not see Chemist as viable without heavy watering down one of its biggest draws 'mix' , the other draw being item manipulation which cannot work in ffxiv due to how our item system works(you could do something like ogcd buff makes your next item ability 'casted' become instant or double used etc - see an idea I ain't against them ).

I think Chemist has ultimately been shelved they tried to make it work for HW when they were a lot more free to design however they wanted compared to now where Chm must have
-gcd small heal that'll be obsolete once hit ShB content
-gcd big heal
-gcd aoe heal
-ogcd panic heal
-ogcd aoe heal
-ogcd single target heal
-ogcd healing up
-a bubble
-ogcd shield
-long gcd raise
-hlr role actions
-gcd dot
-gcd nuke
-gcd aoe dmg
-then they can have their gimmick stuff.

I would love for the devs to prove that the current hlr design can be shaken up but that is the thing they have to prove it. atm they are so adamantly silent about healers who the hell knows what is going on and this has made me quite cynical unfortunately, I would love a chemist with a varied mix added but current Dev intent says no not a maybe a flat out NO.

Man i wish it weren't

[Shurrikhan]

So, by the time 6.0 is here, it will have been 6 years between healer releases. That's assuming a healer *is* released in 6.0, which isn't a guarantee. 4 of those years will have seen SE going "but we want to balance the existing jobs before adding new ones." Do you really want to make that 8 years, with 6 being chasing balance? 10 and 8? Where do we stop?

Honestly, better just three flavors of healer than four sub-flavors of just one. If we get another of the same, it's going to be as if it was never added, at least to me.

But, let's be clear: I've not said that new healer jobs needed to be delayed indefinitely, only that if it came down to creating more of the same or nothing, I'd sooner take nothing and spare us the deepened precedent that all healers are just slight variations in flavor from each other. A new job is probably our best way to break that precedent, but wasting the 4th job on more of the same will make that task so much harder for the 5th. That's why I said the job's implementation shouldn't be held to the constraints of existing jobs so much as it should be looking to free the existing jobs from those constraints.

Put simply, I think they need to be more careful of what they designate "balance" if/when not also being mindful of what it takes to make a compelling experience in the first place. HW made the WHM and SCH feel a bit less distinct in capacity more more distinct in style; we lost nothing. SB had, for the most part, interesting enhancements, once polished (or just more of the same, really, in the case of WHM, which was still mostly fine). ShB finally made something unique for WHM (a functional Lily system), but also cost it in other areas, and largely gutted AST. It was one step forward, two steps right, three steps backwards, so to speak. That can't be our approach in the future. A fixation on balance cannot afford to sacrifice balanced fun as well. But so far it largely has, and (as of the latest round of buffs) the healer jobs haven't really gotten any more balanced despite it. I see no value in introducing a new healer per those constraints. A new healer should be designed specifically to pull the other 3 out of the rut, not deepen it further.

And lastly, to both you and Crushnight: Do you really think we'll get out of the rut by never testing new ideas/jobs? By this sort of attitude, we might as well go back to 2 healers and 2 tanks and never try any other concepts again.

...Reread what you've just quoted from me and you'd quickly see that's the exact opposite of what I've suggested.

[Shurrikhan]

Unless we see a U-turn on how the devs view how healers should be any new idea will be forced into their current vision. Since this is how they intend healers to be, they can be wrong but they would have to acknowledge that they are which they haven't not regards to healers anyway.

Remember the state 5.0 ast and sch were they honestly thought it was perfectly fine same with 4.0 lily system. Then look at how healers have 'progressed' since HW, SB more heals added gauges 1 being entirely pointless until ShB and loss of dps tools, ShB even more heals more loss of dps tools but gauges have uses but most hated iteration of all 3 healers (most people never hated whm it was just under performing to its competition now I actually see people hate it due to the downtime issue plaguing all 3 healers).

With the devs mindset since midway through HW (time they probably thinking of job changes for SB) I cannot see chemist having its iconic mix not be incredibly watered down.

If Chemist was released for HW, sure I could've seen it happening.
If Chemist was released for SB, I could've seen that happening too.
If Chemist was released for ShB, before press release yep same as above,after press release nope.
Can I see Chemist released for 6.0, Nope. Not until the devs show a massive change in their viewpoint and design process.

Agreed, but drastically new things (like the first healer in 6 years) also provide exactly the excuse necessary for drastic changes. Without that, you tend to be stuck.

Even a good change can receive scornful uproar from players if it seems to have no real impetus. Give the change a compelling poster child, though, and -- often enough -- suddenly that change is responsive, effective, and practically sacred to the critical and white knights alike.

[Leidiriv]

I'm personally a major advocate for Chemist's addition to this game (as can be seen from my earlier class concept thread), but I do agree that there needs to be a major shift in healer design philosophy if they're going to add another healer. I'm hoping this shift in philosophy happens by 6.0, but I'm not sure if I'm optimistic yet.

[Duelle]

I've not said that new healer jobs needed to be delayed indefinitely, only that if it came down to creating more of the same or nothing, I'd sooner take nothing and spare us the deepened precedent that all healers are just slight variations in flavor from each other.

One the one hand, I can see where you're coming from. On the other, you have the decision of whether to make this change apply only to new expansion content/level range or make it from the bottom up. Keep in mind that the latter means they have to look at content from ARR, HW, SB, ShB and the new expansion that would bring this change.

I see no value in introducing a new healer per those constraints. A new healer should be designed specifically to pull the other 3 out of the rut, not deepen it further.

I'll ask that you elaborate on the constraints and lack of distinction that I keep hearing about.

Could be just me, but I consider the fact that Cure/Benefic get phased out after lv70 (because it means there's something wrong with how healing or damage taken is scaling) and the 2-healer meta this game has locked itself into to be the biggest problems when it comes to the healer roster.

------------------------

Anyway, just wanted to pop in to say I made some changes to the write up.

Change log:

- Based on feedback, CHM's gear has been changed from "of Aiming" gear to "of Healing" gear.

- The following abilities have received adjustments to their Energy costs:
Basic Potion - 12 Energy
Poisoned Syringe - 15 Energy
Airborne Medicine - 18 Energy
Phoenix Pinion - 35 Energy
Advanced Potion - 18 Energy
Healing Ampoule - 20 Energy
Primed Potion/Ampoule/Poison Syringe - 6 Energy
Emergency Potion/Ampoule - 0 Energy

- Energy regen rate has been increased to 6 energy per second (or 18 energy per server tick), but this amount is reduced to 3 energy per second while preparing potions (or 9 energy per server tick).

- Efficient Syntheses' passive by-product generation has been increased to 3% per second when eligible abilities are on cooldown.

- Chemical Residue's reaction to Catalysts has been adjusted to restore HP with a potency of 350 per stack of Chemical Residue on affected target.

- The number of stacks of Chemical Residue a player may have has been capped at 5 stacks.

- Emergency Potion and Emergency Ampoule have been changed to Abilities (thus being oGCD).

- Propagator now spreads Chemical Residue stacks to party members nearby target. Additionally, it applies a healing over time effect to the main target that heals with a potency determined by the number of stacks on target upon execution, for 9 seconds.

On the docket

- Catalyst: Adapting a suggestion by MartaDemireux, I'm planning on breaking up Catalyst into two abilities. One for healing reactions and one for damage reactions. As of the moment, both share charges/cooldowns. I've yet to decide on a cooldown and just where in the skill spread I should put them.

[Crushnight]

One the one hand, I can see where you're coming from. On the other, you have the decision of whether to make this change apply only to new expansion content/level range or make it from the bottom up. Keep in mind that the latter means they have to look at content from ARR, HW, SB, ShB and the new expansion that would bring this change.
I'll ask that you elaborate on the constraints and lack of distinction that I keep hearing about.

Could be just me, but I consider the fact that Cure/Benefic get phased out after lv70 (because it means there's something wrong with how healing or damage taken is scaling) and the 2-healer meta this game has locked itself into to be the biggest problems when it comes to the healer roster

Thing is the devs clearly only look at the current expansion they are working on atm ShB but that will shift by about 5.4 to 6.0 expansion.

The healer design we currently have does not take into account pre 5.0 content at all and it was something I personally was preaching from the moment media tour embargo was lifted as it was very clear to me everything that was done does not care about 2.0-4.55 content.

ARR and HW have a bigger disparity in downtime than SB and ShB due to the devs actively designing what if cleric stance locked or allowing decent time for cleric to be put on, mechanics are slower, less punishing. Now they have taken a large portion of what healers did during that downtime but the amount remains and actually has been amplified by ShB changes.

Also anyone could easily see that for over 70 levels 1 dot + 1 nuke is incredibly stupid and boring design. But if you just look at 70-80 doesn't look as bad now does it especially with ramping mechanics up (though not that punishing still but I don't expect that from dungeons and story trials) and frequency of mechanics.

It is very clear with dungeon design how much they expect the general population to deal with as the expansions go, I was actually shocked by Philia having as much as it did tied to it despite being very easy and manageable.

Evolution of healers have unfortunately followed dungeon design where they feel that you have to deal with more so we need to take away as much distractions so you can focus more easily.

[Duelle]

Thing is the devs clearly only look at the current expansion they are working on atm ShB but that will shift by about 5.4 to 6.0 expansion.

The healer design we currently have does not take into account pre 5.0 content at all and it was something I personally was preaching from the moment media tour embargo was lifted as it was very clear to me everything that was done does not care about 2.0-4.55 content.

My concern, for lack of a better word, is that we're talking about changing healer kits and/or the paradigm for design. For example, if we decided to add dispeling and cleansing to healer duties, you have to choice of introducing those duties at the start of 6.0 or having to go back and look at most old content to try to fit those duties in (if nothing else to try to teach people that don't buy leveling potions how to play a healer). Same would go for something like changing how healers play so that more heals are cast or make HoTs/shields more prominent to allow more DPS uptime. It just involves much more than taking an extra damage spell away or removing an extra button to press (like Cleric Stance).

[Crushnight]

My concern, for lack of a better word, is that we're talking about changing healer kits and/or the paradigm for design. For example, if we decided to add dispeling and cleansing to healer duties, you have to choice of introducing those duties at the start of 6.0 or having to go back and look at most old content to try to fit those duties in (if nothing else to try to teach people that don't buy leveling potions how to play a healer). Same would go for something like changing how healers play so that more heals are cast or make HoTs/shields more prominent to allow more DPS uptime. It just involves much more than taking an extra damage spell away or removing an extra button to press (like Cleric Stance).

If they add a new mechanic to healers or change how they have designed healers, the devs will only look and balance it in the expansion it is released in with all its content anything prior will not be adjusted for it.

Examples of this design philosophy
-nin release in 2.4 broke anything before it and was still a powerhouse with the stuff it was released with
-Rdm destroyed lower level content due to high potency single spells with dual cast
-Smn release in SB and ShB were fundementally lacking below new content (ultimate Bahamut is apparently horrible for smn now - I only hear second hand on this one)
-ShB mch is very strong while leveling pre 5.0 content(ping dependant like nothing else but strong)
-Gnb is crazy strong at lv70

The devs do not care unless it breaks the current level cap they are working on, so anything new would be balanced to lv90 content in mind.

[Duelle]

In hopes of steering the thread back towards the idea of chemist, let's talk about Mix.

Despite my not being sold on Mix, I've been playing around with a couple of concepts for such an ability.

1) The Dualcast approach - This would play similarly to the current RDM where things happen as you use potions/chemicals back to back. The window for reactions would have to be fairly short (around 6-8 seconds). The positives of this approach is that you get Mix and the products without interrupting the flow of gameplay. The negatives can be summed up in two words: button bloat.

2) Resource generation approach - This would turn Mix into a way to generate resources, either something akin to by-products or catalysts. You activate Mix, hit buttons to make your catalysts/generate resources, go back to healing. The positives here are that you could pace resource generation around the Mix ability and simplify resource generation. The negatives are that you're shackling the job's performance to how often Mix is used and are forced to stop doing your primary function (healing) in order to use Mix.

3) The DNC approach - This approach requires Mix to work similarly to how steps do. Activate Mix, then hit buttons. Instead of dealing AoE damage centered on the player the CHM would throw potions at a target, restoring HP within a radius of the target. Each potion/chemical used would restore HP, though some would restore less HP in exchange for applying a regen effect or a damage shield. The positives here is that you get Mix as an ability while restoring HP when you use it (meaning Mix is not taking away from your primary role). The downside is that limiting mix to restoring HP/Regen/damage shield might be seen as too restrictive by certain people, poor timing might leave the CHM vulnerable, and the ability might become too powerful in future content if more chemicals/potions are added for Mix.