Pipe Dreams: Chemist

[Risvertasashi]

That's just a summery of the events that transpired though. It's not an actual account of what happened. And like I mentioned, it was the Mix command that was giving them problems, and that's what eventually became the card system as we know it. We don't know how into the development the job was before the switch, but we do know it was the iconic Chemist ability that was giving them the issue. That's what AST takes away from the Chemist idea, before it turned into more of a, and still sorta is, a Time Mage-esque job. The only thing MCH got from the initial idea was the weapon, to our knowledge.

Hmm. Well, it does make me think that - if they failed to prototype chemist once - geomancer or some other alternative might be more likely. Not because of overlap with AST, but just in its own right from having tried it.

Sorry if this comes off as flippant, but... is that even a worthwhile goal, given how poorly received that state has been? Shouldn't we almost be doing the opposite, trying to find job ideas that could synergize with movement out of the current near-infamous rut we find ourselves in?


Same, which is why I'd be fine with delaying it, and perhaps even almost any and all new jobs, for increases in identity, diversity, and generally fun gameplay among the existing cast. But that benchmark only gets further and further out of reach when truncating every new idea to the current lowest denominator. Perhaps we should be talking a bit less about that and more about the changes, good or bad, it could compel or allow for the jobs surrounding it?

So, by the time 6.0 is here, it will have been 6 years between healer releases. That's assuming a healer *is* released in 6.0, which isn't a guarantee. 4 of those years will have seen SE going "but we want to balance the existing jobs before adding new ones." Do you really want to make that 8 years, with 6 being chasing balance? 10 and 8? Where do we stop?

The game's already spending a pretty significant portion of its lifecycle with no new content. And if you spend forever chasing the perfect incarnation/balance, you might never add anything new. Every argument against adding a new healer could be applied to adding a new tank, but we still got gunbreaker. And by all accounts, some people very much enjoy playing it.

I laud your patience, but for me, 6+ years a bit long. Not even Blizzard treats healers like that, and I wouldn't exactly call them the gold standard.

And, you know. There's not exactly any guarantee that SE won't mess up WHM and maybe another healer in 6.0, putting us right back where we started - and since SE doesn't do reworks until the next expac, we'd be stuck with that for two years before anything happened.

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And lastly, to both you and Crushnight: Do you really think we'll get out of the rut by never testing new ideas/jobs? By this sort of attitude, we might as well go back to 2 healers and 2 tanks and never try any other concepts again.

[Shurrikhan]

So, by the time 6.0 is here, it will have been 6 years between healer releases. That's assuming a healer *is* released in 6.0, which isn't a guarantee. 4 of those years will have seen SE going "but we want to balance the existing jobs before adding new ones." Do you really want to make that 8 years, with 6 being chasing balance? 10 and 8? Where do we stop?

Honestly, better just three flavors of healer than four sub-flavors of just one. If we get another of the same, it's going to be as if it was never added, at least to me.

But, let's be clear: I've not said that new healer jobs needed to be delayed indefinitely, only that if it came down to creating more of the same or nothing, I'd sooner take nothing and spare us the deepened precedent that all healers are just slight variations in flavor from each other. A new job is probably our best way to break that precedent, but wasting the 4th job on more of the same will make that task so much harder for the 5th. That's why I said the job's implementation shouldn't be held to the constraints of existing jobs so much as it should be looking to free the existing jobs from those constraints.

Put simply, I think they need to be more careful of what they designate "balance" if/when not also being mindful of what it takes to make a compelling experience in the first place. HW made the WHM and SCH feel a bit less distinct in capacity more more distinct in style; we lost nothing. SB had, for the most part, interesting enhancements, once polished (or just more of the same, really, in the case of WHM, which was still mostly fine). ShB finally made something unique for WHM (a functional Lily system), but also cost it in other areas, and largely gutted AST. It was one step forward, two steps right, three steps backwards, so to speak. That can't be our approach in the future. A fixation on balance cannot afford to sacrifice balanced fun as well. But so far it largely has, and (as of the latest round of buffs) the healer jobs haven't really gotten any more balanced despite it. I see no value in introducing a new healer per those constraints. A new healer should be designed specifically to pull the other 3 out of the rut, not deepen it further.

And lastly, to both you and Crushnight: Do you really think we'll get out of the rut by never testing new ideas/jobs? By this sort of attitude, we might as well go back to 2 healers and 2 tanks and never try any other concepts again.

...Reread what you've just quoted from me and you'd quickly see that's the exact opposite of what I've suggested.