Tanking feels unimportant

[MerlinCross]

What part about healer shields for the party do you not understand???? Those will proc it, healer AoE's will proc it. Just prep use it before the raid wide AoE or spam, decent healers will use shields for the party and would you look at that, viel is proc'd.

If that's the case, why does Paladin actually need it besides every tank having some take on it. It's not the PLD's responsibility at this point, it's the Healers, so just take the skill and give it to the Healer. But hey, keep showing why you want Clemancy deleted and passing any other responsibility on to others so you can do more damage with your weak percentage now.

Not used to heal and not used to pop Veil now, what purpose do you use it for when you give both parts of that combo over to the healers?

Shhh, don't tell him about coordination and teamplay.

Teamplay should be a bit of give and take, working together, not "Hey use this ability for me cause I sure as heck won't". Maybe we find a way to put some ability for another role on each of them for more teamplay.

I figured it was obvious (since SB TBN didn't have a feedback loop) but I'm referring to ShB TBN. Where it provides a free Edge or Flood via Dark Arts if the shield gets broken.

SB TBN had feedback just not as a loop though and I thought it was fine back then.

[FirstnameLastname]

Teamplay should be a bit of give and take, working together, not "Hey use this ability for me cause I sure as heck won't".

And people are working together to proc Divine Veil, as is intended.

What do you gain from trying to stay ignorant so hard?

[MerlinCross]

And people are working together to proc Divine Veil, as is intended.

What do you gain from trying to stay ignorant so hard?

Really I would think the intended thing to do is either have the heal proc it, or if need be, CAST YOUR OWN HEALING SPELL.

But no your healing spell is a DPS loss from the lowest damage dealers in the game, so have the healers that do more damage than you do it.

Fine. Keep your Veil and have another reason to blame healers, like people don't have enough things to blame healers for. You'll all ready to throw a party if Clemency got deleted for your precious DPS but don't want to budge on Veil getting changed because that's would be putting the responsibility back in your corner. I'm not crazy here am I? If they decided to cut Clemancy(And bow to the DPS chasing meta we have) wouldn't it make sense to change Veil to reflect it because PLD can no longer, within their own kit, proc it?

[ReiMakoto]

Really I would think the intended thing to do is either have the heal proc it, or if need be, CAST YOUR OWN HEALING SPELL.

But no your healing spell is a DPS loss from the lowest damage dealers in the game, so have the healers that do more damage than you do it.

Fine. Keep your Veil and have another reason to blame healers, like people don't have enough things to blame healers for. You'll all ready to throw a party if Clemency got deleted for your precious DPS but don't want to budge on Veil getting changed because that's would be putting the responsibility back in your corner. I'm not crazy here am I? If they decided to cut Clemancy(And bow to the DPS chasing meta we have) wouldn't it make sense to change Veil to reflect it because PLD can no longer, within their own kit, proc it?

Healers only start out damaging tanks, specifically pld at 99th percentile and above i.e. the percentiles where they are basically not playing as a healer anymore, someone mathed it out when the expansion dropped, its only a dps gain to use a clemency in a stituation where a whm would be forced to cast a cure 2 while the pld is in req, and even then its a very minor increase. I dont understand why youre so mad about veil, its basically always going to pop based off of healers natural play anyway, even if clemency is removed it would be nice to keep it as it currently is as rn you can cast veil early and healers will proc it naturally when its needed

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Really I would think the intended thing to do is either have the heal proc it, or if need be, CAST YOUR OWN HEALING SPELL.

But no your healing spell is a DPS loss from the lowest damage dealers in the game, so have the healers that do more damage than you do it.

Fine. Keep your Veil and have another reason to blame healers, like people don't have enough things to blame healers for. You'll all ready to throw a party if Clemency got deleted for your precious DPS but don't want to budge on Veil getting changed because that's would be putting the responsibility back in your corner. I'm not crazy here am I? If they decided to cut Clemancy(And bow to the DPS chasing meta we have) wouldn't it make sense to change Veil to reflect it because PLD can no longer, within their own kit, proc it?

What is with your attitude towards people recognising Clemency should only be used in case of emergency, or prog, not spammed the s*** out of the button till you are dry on mana. It's not down to "precious DPS". It's healers don't need scrub paladins spamming Clemency when they have so many POWERFUL healing tools available to them. So focus on doing your rotation and pay attention to what you have to do, not what the healer does.

Okay so Divine Veil, you keep talking like it's the end of the world s*** if the healer doesn't proc it. 90% of healers will know it is there, they spend most of their time look at HP bars, (not what tanks should be doing), and they will see Divine Veil active on the paladin. Now, a healer will say okay, I need that for x, and have y amount of second before I need to heal and proc veil, and will proc it in due course, OR the healer will say I don't need Divine Veil over the next 30-60 seconds, nor do I need to GCD heal for the next 30 seconds, so they will let it drop off the paladin, simple as that. (Of course it is worth noting, if a SCH is present, Eos / Selene will often times proc Divine Veil with Embrace.)

So in your misguided righteousness in the demand that Divine veil gets proc'd, you cast Clemency, and you've just wasted a GCD and 2000 mp for a shield your healer(s) do not need, worth?

Nope.

[Quor]

SB TBN had feedback just not as a loop though and I thought it was fine back then.

I wouldn't call that a feedback loop. The general idea of a feedback loop is that you get more out of it than you put into it (i.e. the loop grows stronger) and the old SB TBN just kinda gave you back what you put into it, and even then it wasn't guaranteed thanks to how it provided on-global damage. The new ShB TBN - used appropriately of course - is a full-on gain compared to not using it. A more clear feedback loop using the old-style SB TBN would be if using the "free" 50 blood from a broken TBN also granted extra MP or something, with there essentially being an overall net gain in all situations instead of the case-by-case benefit it provided.

But I can see where the confusion comes from. I'll amend the original post for clarity.

[DRKoftheAzure]

I figured it was obvious (since SB TBN didn't have a feedback loop) but I'm referring to ShB TBN. Where it provides a free Edge or Flood via Dark Arts if the shield gets broken.

Stormblood TBN was a way better use for MP spending since if and when it broke you got a free Bloodspiller/Quietus out of it over using Dark Arts, but that's only if you knew when it would be break on either yourself or co-tank, whereas Shadowbringers TBN is pointless on break since you would have used that 3k MP for Edge/Flood of Shadow anyway, and I know someone might have some weird rotation where they can get 5 Edge of Shadows in with 5 Bloodspillers in an opener, but I would rather TBN give me a free Edge/Flood of Shadow use, 50 Blood gauge, AND reset Abyssal Drain and Carve and Spit recast timers if it broke and just a free Edge/Flood of Shadow if it just fell off...

[DRKoftheAzure]

Also back on topic of the thread; enmity combos were a necessary evil, just like positionals bonuses/requirements are for melee DPS...

[Shurrikhan]

Also back on topic of the thread; enmity combos were a necessary evil, just like positionals bonuses/requirements are for melee DPS...

Enmity management was an obvious mechanic to use for a role meant to divert enemy attention, just like making use of universal controls (i.e. WASD or left stick) to increase apm in standard gameplay was an obvious mechanic for jobs meant to be more apm-engaging and both provide and demand extreme mobility.

Neither implementation was necessary as such. Both could have gone other routes to achieve their ends.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Enmity management was an obvious mechanic to use for a role meant to divert enemy attention, just like making use of universal controls (i.e. WASD or left stick) to increase apm in standard gameplay was an obvious mechanic for jobs meant to be more apm-engaging and both provide and demand extreme mobility.

Neither implementation was necessary as such. Both could have gone other routes to achieve their ends.

So you are basically saying that you want to do away with positional bonuses/requirements on melee DPS...?

Because why cater to the midcore audience when you want to cater to hardcore audience but also cater to the casual audience...?