PLDs: You have Clemency for a reason.

[WhyAmIHere]

I'm... not even going to touch OP with a 10 foot pole, but as for "tactical" uses of Clemency, there's 1 niche that hasn't been touched on yet;
Room-wide aggro.


Healing spells generate 50% potency as enmity to *every enemy in combat*

or to put that in practical terms: you can clemency and generate enmity (and with tank stance) likely get aggro on an add more than 25y away...
or just spawning in...
or without repositioning...
Or multiple adds within a single GCD, something beyond provoke or shield lob could ever hope to do.

by simply overhealing yourself with 1 GCD.

it's *extremely* niche and screws with your rotation, but it's there. GNB has aurora. WAR has equilibrium. PLD can do it, too. DRK just... cries in the corner, i guess.

why waste a GCD to cast a spell with a cast time when you could just use your AoE combo GCD without a cast time and just hit all the mobs?
Clemency for "AoE aggro" is about as stupid as a lot of other things brought up in this thread.
WAR is the one exception I'd say, but only AFTER you already establish hate because WAR's 1st step AoE combo is the only one of all the tanks that isn't a circle around the user.

[Fluffernuff]

your patronizing is noted. however, you either dont even understand what you quoted, or stopped 3 words in. Your ire is misguided.

to save us both from having to deal with another novella, I'm simply going to say this;


ESTABLISHING initial aggro is far different than generating it once you have it. I was referring to the former.


Not every solution is best solved by running a boss to one corner and then the other, using AoE on single target. and sometimes MP is worth saving 3 GCDs.

even in the singular and extremely rare scenario I bring up, Clemency should be used ONCE, *AT ALL* simply to turn those grey circles into red squares on multiple targets out of your eclipse range. using a single GCD instead of several for shield lobs.

Youre going to be "wasting" or "losing DPS" regardless, so why would you chose the one that takes the longest to recover from? I for one like to not move and continue having single target uptime on the boss. it's not like mobs instantly warp to you.
and since these situations *only* exist in dungeons- ethers exist, so the MP cost isnt even a huge DPS loss. not any worse than using 2-3 shield lobs are.


obviously single mobs should be picked up with shield lob/provoke. obviously if mobs are already/spawn in melee range, you should eclipse combo. That isnt what I was talking about.

[KalinOrthos]

Aurora for Gunbreakers performs in a similar way on the initial pull; generate boosted enmity from healing in tank stance, the mobs run straight to you instead of the white mage who accidentally stuck regen on you. It's incredibly niche but extremely useful for mob pickup.

[MerlinCross]

Delete it and give Damage skill.

[WhyAmIHere]

your patronizing is noted. however, you either dont even understand what you quoted, or stopped 3 words in. Your ire is misguided.

to save us both from having to deal with another novella, I'm simply going to say this;


ESTABLISHING initial aggro is far different than generating it once you have it. I was referring to the former.

Your high-browed dismissal of my intellect and criticism as pure patronization is duly noted and rebutted thusly:
ESTABLISHING aggro? I knew what you meant. And it's still stupid. You enter the mobs aggro range. You get that default, "AN ENEMY!" aggro, that can easily be ripped. You either stand still and cast a heal, or KEEP MOVING TO THE MOBS AND USE AN AOE MOVE.

You are literally wasting time casting a clemency to eStAbLiSh InItIaL aGgRo when you're standing still when you can keep moving and accomplish the same thing by not wasting MP and pushing back your holy circle rotation.

On bosses you pull with either shield lob, or holy spirit. To eStAbLiSh InItIaL aGgRo with clemency you'd have to face pull to get the boss to notice you and again, waste MP on doing 0 damage just to establish aggro and delay your Holy [spell] combo.

I highly doubt you even know how to play PLD at all.

[Fluffernuff]

frankly, 1 GCD and MP that is *entirely* recovered from a single consumable (that is an effective oGCD)... is alot less wasteful than 2-3 GCDs. it's almost as if you use 1440 MP, use an oGCD to recover 1500-1800 MP, and by the time your GCD is back up... your MP is full again AND you get your "holy" spell! all for the cost of.... your pride, I guess? I wasnt aware this was a topic of shield lob being a DPS gain.


Honestly, if a single use of 600 effective potency worth of aggro isnt enough to hold aggro for the 2-3 second its takes for a mob to reach you, you need far, far better gear. Tomestone gear is probably better than the greens you've picked up in grand cosmos. I would start there.

going to make a small edit here, since my memory is garbage;
but clemency actually costs 2000 and not 1440, and im struggling to remember how i got that in my head. regardless, even at 80, you get 1800 from a HQ super ether, and 200 is still not only within Req range, but but is recovered DURING req to still get 4casts+confiteor. MP management is hardly that "tight" for paladin.

[shao32]

establish agro is a joke in this expansion and it was before as long you keep tank stance on, the moment you use a single aoe on a dungeon pull or you ranged attack on a boss bam you have agro secured in any pull, seriously don't promote useless habits ppl, specially if you use agro as a excuse bcs no just no, just go ahead of you party go to the crowd and use your aoes, it's easy, there is no need to stay stuck in the floor 2.5s on every pack letting them hurt you party bcs you are casting clemency for agro, it's not optimal at all specially when every add come to hug you when they see you all together so nicely like a family to use you aoes, and if is not you it's your healer but for that they have to pass you first and you can use you aoes anyway quickly and more faster apart of being a dps gain always, save the heals when they are need it like reducing the amount of work of you healer on mass pulling with GNB and WAR and for PLD only on case of extreme necesity, but extreme extreme necesity, other wise never use clemency for such things.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

frankly, 1 GCD and MP that is *entirely* recovered from a single consumable (that is an effective oGCD)... is alot less wasteful than 2-3 GCDs. it's almost as if you use 1440 MP, use an oGCD to recover 1500-1800 MP, and by the time your GCD is back up... your MP is full again AND you get your "holy" spell! all for the cost of.... your pride, I guess? I wasnt aware this was a topic of shield lob being a DPS gain.


Honestly, if a single use of 600 effective potency worth of aggro isnt enough to hold aggro for the 2-3 second its takes for a mob to reach you, you need far, far better gear. Tomestone gear is probably better than the greens you've picked up in grand cosmos. I would start there.

going to make a small edit here, since my memory is garbage;
but clemency actually costs 2000 and not 1440, and im struggling to remember how i got that in my head. regardless, even at 80, you get 1800 from a HQ super ether, and 200 is still not only within Req range, but but is recovered DURING req to still get 4casts+confiteor. MP management is hardly that "tight" for paladin.

Tbh, I've never had to cast clemency once for aggro, is it do-able certainly, is it worth? Most definitely not.

If someone, let's say the healer, has regen'd you as you're pulling packs, and a couple have latched onto the healer, you should keep running until you've reached your desired stop point then AoE spam and pop cooldowns as needed. In this time any stray stragglers the healer had, should have been brought into the pack and caught in your AoE spam.

Yes you do get idiots that panic and run around like headless chickens, but as said they are in fact idiots, and you'll probably have to move to them. (But they aren't too common. Uncommon events aren't enough to be a justification).

It's as simple as that, throwing Clemency in the mix for aggro, is like PF, trying to be big brain but end up with an inferior strat.
.
Also worth noting how busted PLD AoE actually is in requiescat, especially the pack after first boss in Copied Factory where I can peak to ~65k. If you Clemency to get aggro, might miss out on that spike.

[Fluffernuff]

snip

Snip

I agree on all points.
Sadly, I've failed horribly to convey my point. or it's been lost in translation due to taking open hostility poorly. I have no issue with discussion or being wrong, but there needs to be some basic civility and more substance than "because thats dumb and youre an idiot", you know?

so I'll make one last attempt here with hopefully a clearer head;

To start, I only even consider any of this this for a very few select dungeons bosses, due to their specific mechanics.
this is *not* for trash pulls.
this is *not* for single target.
this is *not* because aggro is too hard to manage.

Really, the limit and extent to my claim.... is limited to
2+ mobs spawning at the same time in the middle of combat with a boss. All outside of range for a single eclipse combo.

Before going forward, I want to get 1 thing blantantly clear, so we are all on the same page-


NONE OF THIS IS A USUAL, DEFAULT, OR PRIMARY STRATEGY BY ANY MEANS


In fact, i decided to look through the list of every level 58+ dungeon, trial, and raid earlier to think about where there was even a fight that it would even apply. For the most part, adds are either singular, meant to be split, or dont even exist (or in the case of hullbreaker hard or amaurot... just a trash pack instead of a boss).
Clemency is outright worthless in all of these cases. MP is better served elsewhere, and other tools do the job without resources or a cast time at all.

beyond level 68 (where PLD even gets req in the first place) there are... 3 fights that spawn multiple adds at once out in timbuktu. Three. on top of that, every single one of them are only IF the party messes up.

an example;
In the Twinning, at the first boss. If 2 party members break cages with their marks. suddenly theres 2 adds in random spots around the arena that just cleaved their butts clean open.
suddenly clemency is just an easier tool to use than sprinting over for 2 shield lobs or eclipses. or waiting for the healer to be an aggro magnet for an eclipse combo.
Situations like these crop up most commonly in the level 60 HW dungeons than anywhere else. Fights like mogchief and his moogle army in sohr kai. Or the spriggans in ziggy's fight in antitower, to give further examples.

I'm hardly claiming that clemency is suddenly a primary aggro tool. simply that it's.... not actually worthless for a hyper specific set of circumstances that you miiiiight actually get dumped in your daily roulettes.
I simply did not and do not see the harm in this, especially in a thread discussing value to clemency; I see it as 1 GCD and a consumable vs losing positioning/uptime and 2+ GCDs. in a situation you'll find yourself in.. maybe once every 2-3 months. or never if roulettes are beneath you.

I... really do apologize for coming off any more grand than that. I suppose I dont know how to explain that point much clearer at this point.

[Aurida]

Wait, you guys don't use Clemency to pick up the extra mobs that spawn in from the cages or summoning circles in aquapolis/uznair/etc.? I always just grab the first mobs from the north, tank them east so I'm in position for the second drop, and then when the west cage opens use Clemency/Equilibrium/Aurora to make them run to me.

Saves me having to run across the arena to pick them up and dragging mobs out of DPS' AoE attacks or ground effects like Doton, that way everyone can keep swinging. I'd never do it in, like, raid or anything, but...