Is the "One Steppe at a Time V" achievement reward a bit cruel to put up?

[Noitems]

Not every thing in the game needs to be a consolation prize, especially in PVP. Work for your rewards and then feel the satisfaction of getting over those losses and reeling in those wins.

[KapraGoatmog]

Not every thing in the game needs to be a consolation prize, especially in PVP. Work for your rewards and then feel the satisfaction of getting over those losses and reeling in those wins.

Only one problem with that: when something such as a pvp win is 100% up to chance, you can't "work" for it. No matter how hard a person tries to master the job in pvp, it doesn't matter due to the simple fact that a single person can not win the game alone. From teammates who don't know what they are doing, to enemy teams being far more coordinated that yours could ever hope to be, the pvp game is up to the roll of the dice. Stop lying to someone by telling them they just need to work at it. Their skill is meaningless in pvp.

[Gserpent]

Only one problem with that: when something such as a pvp win is 100% up to chance, you can't "work" for it. No matter how hard a person tries to master the job in pvp, it doesn't matter due to the simple fact that a single person can not win the game alone. From teammates who don't know what they are doing, to enemy teams being far more coordinated that yours could ever hope to be, the pvp game is up to the roll of the dice. Stop lying to someone by telling them they just need to work at it. Their skill is meaningless in pvp.

I've won three FL games in a row across the past day or two by playing NIN and killing the enemy team. Want to know how I can prove that I was why we won? Because I can look at my Kills - Deaths, look at the "tactical points from KO" line item, and see where my 26 kills got us a large portion of the difference between us and the nearest team.

I've also had games where we lost by like 50 points; that's literally the difference between getting a few kills with an ult, or chaining my ult between 8+ people in a row.

If you play well, you will win games more often than not. Yeah, sometimes you get real paste-eaters on your team and ever since GARO came back I've seen a depressing number of people who are basically just walking around AFK, but that doesn't change the fact that you can really abuse the 8 points per KO income by picking the right classes. SMN and SCH may get you to the top of the damage charts but classes like NIN are the ones making actual kills.

[Moonlite]

I've won three FL games in a row across the past day or two by playing NIN and killing the enemy team. Want to know how I can prove that I was why we won? Because I can look at my Kills - Deaths, look at the "tactical points from KO" line item, and see where my 26 kills got us a large portion of the difference between us and the nearest team.

I've also had games where we lost by like 50 points; that's literally the difference between getting a few kills with an ult, or chaining my ult between 8+ people in a row.

If you play well, you will win games more often than not. Yeah, sometimes you get real paste-eaters on your team and ever since GARO came back I've seen a depressing number of people who are basically just walking around AFK, but that doesn't change the fact that you can really abuse the 8 points per KO income by picking the right classes. SMN and SCH may get you to the top of the damage charts but classes like NIN are the ones making actual kills.

I was just thinking 20+ kill people can greatly influence matches. Specially if they are kills at heavy contested points. It is a little bit of a shame no 8 man because if you couldn't lead an 8 man team to victory you probably aren't as good as you think you are.

[Gserpent]

I was just thinking 20+ kill people can greatly influence matches. Specially if they are kills at heavy contested points. It is a little bit of a shame no 8 man because if you couldn't lead an 8 man team to victory you probably aren't as good as you think you are.

Pfft, I wish. 8v8v8 with fewer nodes could be really fun. I'd *love* to play 24-man OH.

[Apeman]

Getting tons of "kills" isn't really impressive as a lot of them come from being the lucky person that lands that last hit with 4-5 people beating on someone or stacking LBs with other jobs. No one person has a sizeable impact on any game unless they are doing callouts and leading the team with strategy. Even then you have games where half the alliance never listens and you get rolled anyway. Unless you are queueing with an 8 person premade frontlines is a total crapshoot atm and getting 100 wins is asking more then should be needed in my opinion.

[gioroggia]

Not every thing in the game needs to be a consolation prize, especially in PVP. Work for your rewards and then feel the satisfaction of getting over those losses and reeling in those wins.

I would agree except that Frontlines is... Well... Frontlines. Each player contributes very little to the end results, the jobs are extremely unbalanced in the mode, and 80% of the people there are just in for the roulette exp and don't care about trying to win. So... It is always a consolation prize, the only difference is whether you are lucky and it comes quickly or unlucky and it takes ages to materialize.

That, or make a 4-man all-summoner premade through a PvP discord server to boost your win rate. But then it is hardly your own merit.

So I don't think this talk of "consolation prize" applies to the achievement OP is discussing. It's not like the current achievement relies much on the player's skills and merits anyway.

[Liam_Harper]

I would agree except that Frontlines is... Well... Frontlines. Each player contributes very little to the end results

I have to agree with that. Normally I'd be fine with achievements where you have to succeed to earn them, but in a 72 man you're very much rolling the dice each time. As an individual you don't really earn it through your own ability as a player.

It's basically already a participation prize, just more like "participate in roughly 200-400 games and we'll give you the achievement somewhere along the line based on your luck". No reason not to set it to a flat 300.

[Gserpent]

I would agree except that Frontlines is... Well... Frontlines. Each player contributes very little to the end results, the jobs are extremely unbalanced in the mode, and 80% of the people there are just in for the roulette exp and don't care about trying to win. So... It is always a consolation prize, the only difference is whether you are lucky and it comes quickly or unlucky and it takes ages to materialize.

That, or make a 4-man all-summoner premade through a PvP discord server to boost your win rate. But then it is hardly your own merit.

So I don't think this talk of "consolation prize" applies to the achievement OP is discussing. It's not like the current achievement relies much on the player's skills and merits anyway.

Individual players can make substantial contributions to the game. You can't carry a game all by yourself, but four players coordinating can absolutely tip the scales in a substantial way.

SMN isn't as good as you believe it to be, by the way. They have basically nothing to contribute to fights between Bahamut summons, and you can easily just guard through Bahamut anyhow.

[gioroggia]

Individual players can make substantial contributions to the game. You can't carry a game all by yourself, but four players coordinating can absolutely tip the scales in a substantial way.

SMN isn't as good as you believe it to be, by the way. They have basically nothing to contribute to fights between Bahamut summons, and you can easily just guard through Bahamut anyhow.

Individually you mean next to nothing to the end results even if you're highly skilled. And, like I said, if to actually make a difference you need to be in a 4-man premade, then it is not really your own skill that affects your win rate. It is the fact that you have three people willing to play frontlines with you. That's fine, no problem there. But it doesn't make the achievement "merit-based", since it is not really your skill tipping the scales in your favor, it is the fact that your team likely has one more premade than the other teams. That's what I mean.

About summoner... Well, all you have to do to settle this is look at at the stats at the end of the game. Summoner and Scholar tend to have far more damage than any other job - it's not even close - with the difference that Scholar's damage does not translate into enemy deaths nearly as often as Summoner's damage does. Sure, other jobs can contribute. Scholar itself has useful buffs, WHM heals a ton and has useful CC, Dragoon can deal a fair amount of damage and then back away into safety, DRK/PLD can jump in attracting enemy attention then pop their immune tools... Etc. But Summoner is just a tier above in FF and that will not change anytime soon because balance will be based around CC, and on CC they're not nearly as good.