PLDs: You have Clemency for a reason.

[SaberMaxwell]

I like how you basically see verraise and vercure as not a skill to counter your point. Makes my /chuckle. Don't be so narrow minded, I simply reminded people dps jobs offer more than just no brain dps.

They're not skills. They're spells. Spells that take up the global cooldown, which means that in addition to the mana cost there is also an opportunity cost to using them. Red Mage's vercure heals for less than a physick does, by the by, although yes verraise is a controversially powerful utility; raises being the only heals that can target 0 HP party members and having long cast times that RDM can bypass. This doesn't counter, however, that your quote is literally:

RDM's healing? Nah just let the RDM dps constantly and let the healer do their job. Same with ressing for that matter.

Whether you mean it or not, it comes across very silly: How dare a Red Mage just... dps? Ugh. How... barbaric. They should be vercuring to help the Scholar out in Holminster Switch.

[Rasikko]

I donno Saber, sometimes it feels like Holminster should require 2 healers LOL. The only dungeon with a 5 man setup. T/H/H/D/D lmao..

[Barraind]

4.8% is not 10%, lol.

I expect tooltips to actually do what they say they do.

Sacred soul decreases damage taken by 10%. The tooltip is correct.

All damage reduction %'s stack multiplicativly, meaning that tanks, who have an innate 20% damage reduction, are effectively taking 10% less of 80%. A tank with a 30% cooldown popped is getting 5.6% dr from soil. A warrior stacking cooldowns of different types will get effective DR of less than 5%.

This is why tenacity is an awful stat to stack, because in places you would think tenacity is helpful, its defensive value is half of what its stat value says it is.

If DR was additive to a point, or healer DR% worked like the Vie line in EQ / tank and dps damage debuffs in 14, youd get a lot more value out of small DR packets.


You get sacred soil because it's a decent tool to deal with AE's, especially once its also is a regen field.

[ForteNightshade]

Is there a problem with that?

Just curious.

Yes, because in the vast majority of cases, it won't be a problem regardless of the healer. I've even healed those wall-to-wall pulls myself on all three healers, and I'm by now means a good Scholar. It's entirely doable provided the tank rotates CDs properly and the DPS are AoE. Considering you had a Paladin who began with Hallowed. That tells me they're at least reasonably competent as leading with your immunity is often what tanks do to get a second or third usage.

I shouldn't have to assume a middle ground because once in a while I have a healer who can't cope. In this specific instance, it sounds more like you either had weak DPS or you weren't managing your resources well. If you're running low on stacks, use Dissipation when the first pull is dying. That way you'll have three going into the next and Eos will be off her 30s penalty. By the time you've depleted those, AF itself will be available. Soil is also not worth the cost until it gets its Regen, which I don't believe it has in Holminster. Finally, if you are tapped out completely. Use Physick.

[HyoMinPark]

I read the thread—very entertaining tangent in the middle there, accusing raiders of being the toxic ones in this community while throwing insults at anyone who dares disagree with the statement, by the way—but I don’t know if I ever saw this mentioned by the OP:

At any point in time, did you communicate directly your concerns/problems with the tank? Or did you just expect them to pay attention to what you were doing the entire time? With no communication, how could they possibly know that you were struggling or missing certain cooldowns or just generally unhappy? People aren’t clairvoyant.

This honestly sounds like it’s more so an issue with the way you were handling the situation as opposed to anything else. Assuming that the PLD was popping all of their defensives, if you were unable to keep them alive, that’s on you. You can spread the blame around a little bit if the DPS were slacking and not AOEing the mobs (to that person who was ranting about DPS dealing damage: yes, that is their primary job function and what they should be worrying most about); but if they were AOEing, most of the blame falls on you if the tank was using mitigation correctly. That can be due to inexperience—but it’s your responsibility to communicate your own inexperience to the party if it’s present because they wouldn’t know otherwise. You made a comment about how you hadn’t played SCH in a few weeks: the PLD isn’t going to know that unless you tell them “Hey, I’m a bit rusty”.

Should they have Clemency’d? Probably. I would have. But it’s very likely they thought you’d lose it at them if they did—because that’s a thing that happens. I‘ve even seen healers say they’ll stop healing entirely because a PLD dared Clemency themselves. Overall, I agree with both the notion that PLDs should Clemency if it is absolutely necessary—but I also agree that they shouldn’t be required to mash Clemency because their healer is not able to handle standard pulls in dungeons (the pulls you’ve described are standard for Holminster—including the first one with the three groups).


I also wanted to point out something that I didn’t see mentioned before:

When you were discussing other healing options tanks had, you cited “Astral Drain” for DRK. I’m assuming you meant Abyssal Drain here? If so, Abyssal is on a 60 second cooldown now. It won’t be nearly enough to keep a DRK alive in a large pull. It’s nice to have as a little boost to help healing, but one heal every 60 seconds is not something you should be relying on as a healer. This isn’t HW or SB anymore where DRKs could Dart Arts + Abyssal Drain and laugh as they healed themselves during large pulls (sadly).

[Maeka]

I read the thread—very entertaining tangent in the middle there, accusing raiders of being the toxic ones in this community while throwing insults at anyone who dares disagree with the statement, by the way—but I don’t know if I ever saw this mentioned by the OP:

At any point in time, did you communicate directly your concerns/problems with the tank? Or did you just expect them to pay attention to what you were doing the entire time? With no communication, how could they possibly know that you were struggling or missing certain cooldowns or just generally unhappy? People aren’t clairvoyant.

This honestly sounds like it’s more so an issue with the way you were handling the situation as opposed to anything else. Assuming that the PLD was popping all of their defensives, if you were unable to keep them alive, that’s on you. You can spread the blame around a little bit if the DPS were slacking and not AOEing the mobs (to that person who was ranting about DPS dealing damage: yes, that is their primary job function and what they should be worrying most about); but if they were AOEing, most of the blame falls on you if the tank was using mitigation correctly. That can be due to inexperience—but it’s your responsibility to communicate your own inexperience to the party if it’s present because they wouldn’t know otherwise. You made a comment about how you hadn’t played SCH in a few weeks: the PLD isn’t going to know that unless you tell them “Hey, I’m a bit rusty”.

Should they have Clemency’d? Probably. I would have. But it’s very likely they thought you’d lose it at them if they did—because that’s a thing that happens. I‘ve even seen healers say they’ll stop healing entirely because a PLD dared Clemency themselves. Overall, I agree with both the notion that PLDs should Clemency if it is absolutely necessary—but I also agree that they shouldn’t be required to mash Clemency because their healer is not able to handle standard pulls in dungeons (the pulls you’ve described are standard for Holminster—including the first one with the three groups).


I also wanted to point out something that I didn’t see mentioned before:

When you were discussing other healing options tanks had, you cited “Astral Drain” for DRK. I’m assuming you meant Abyssal Drain here? If so, Abyssal is on a 60 second cooldown now. It won’t be nearly enough to keep a DRK alive in a large pull. It’s nice to have as a little boost to help healing, but one heal every 60 seconds is not something you should be relying on as a healer. This isn’t HW or SB anymore where DRKs could Dart Arts + Abyssal Drain and laugh as they healed themselves during large pulls (sadly).

A reasonable response.

I will admit that I had kept kinda quiet, but then just like PLDs who are afraid of casting Clemency, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, asking people to pull less, well... I've had bad experiences in the past, where people give not-so-kind grumbles, sometimes people immediately drop group, sometimes tanks drop group...

And I said earlier in the thread, that Healers need to stop whining if a PLD casts Clemency for exactly this reason. If a PLD feels that the healer is struggling, they should not get offended at a Clemency cast. They should just simply heal more because the tank doesn't like getting that low. I know I certainly don't like getting low myself if I'm playing PLD.

As for Abyssal Drain, yes, I realize it's a 60 second cooldown but it is still a spike heal, even if it is only once per 60 seconds, and no, it should not be relied upon for main healing. Heck, I wasn't even claiming Clemency should be relied upon. It is there, however, and I see DRKs using it frequently. They wait until they're halfway or a third or what-not and pop it, and all is good.

Kinda wish PLDs would do that with Clemency now and then, because even if it was unnecessary, a Clemency cast, especially if it Crits, lets me get out an extra two Holy, Gravity or sometimes 3 Arts of War which I'm sure would do a wee bit more damage than one Holy Circle would, assuming I was not struggling at the time.

And if I was struggling at the time, well, that Clemency just might have saved a wipe.

So.....

While I'm not saying that Clemency should be popped like candy, it is a nice tool that should be used on occasion in certain circumstances.

Maybe I should speak up a bit more, but then, maybe Healers should stop whining about Clemency so much.

I know some people in this thread like to paint me as this person who is refusing to listen to input which is simply untrue, who is refusing to take any blame which is also untrue, as I did say that I had missed things like Fey Union and I simply got flustered with the 3-group pull off the bat without warning before I was even mentally ready to deal with that kind of stress, and the fact I didn't know how bad Sacred Soil was because I trusted what the game actually told me about the ability that is apparently false information...

But...

I would like to point out that most of this thread was me going "It wasn't ALL my fault." because I predicted (correctly so) that the majority of those posting in it would try to put 100% (or dang near it) of the blame on me.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Kinda wish PLDs would do that with Clemency now and then, because even if it was unnecessary, a Clemency cast, especially if it Crits, lets me get out an extra two Holy, Gravity or sometimes 3 Arts of War which I'm sure would do a wee bit more damage than one Holy Circle would, assuming I was not struggling at the time.

A paladin should NEVER Clemency so the healer can AoE in place of Holy Circle, which is 375 potency under Requiescat versus healers AoE potency of 160 on SCH's Art of War and 140 on both WHM's Holy and AST's Gravity, even accounting for stat and formula differences it is a dps loss.

It's even stricter on PLD's melee AoE that it gains just full on mp as Requiescat comes off cooldown that using clemency delays the next Requiescat in AoE by 2-3 combos or 4-6 GCDs give or take, depending on Spirits Within, and mp regen in combat, if you wanna bring optimising DPS into this.

[WhyAmIHere]

A reasonable response.

I will admit that I had kept kinda quiet, but then just like PLDs who are afraid of casting Clemency, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, asking people to pull less, well... I've had bad experiences in the past, where people give not-so-kind grumbles, sometimes people immediately drop group, sometimes tanks drop group...
We've all had bad experiences with duty finder. That's the beauty of duty finder. You have no idea the kinds of people you'll encounter there, from savage raiders trying to cap tomes to a level 54 WHM in stone vigil with not a single piece of gear above level 30 requirement. You shouldn't let past bad experiences forever taint your future endeavors.

And I said earlier in the thread, that Healers need to stop whining if a PLD casts Clemency for exactly this reason. If a PLD feels that the healer is struggling, they should not get offended at a Clemency cast. They should just simply heal more because the tank doesn't like getting that low. I know I certainly don't like getting low myself if I'm playing PLD.
Only thing im'a say on this is it's a lack of trust. If a PLD is using clemency too often or willy nilly, it shows they do not trust their healers. This is bad gameplay and just a bad mentality overall. A clemency here or there if the healer's struggling is fine IMO. Unfortunately, this whole thing is one massive grey area, nothing is cut and dry

As for Abyssal Drain, yes, I realize it's a 60 second cooldown but it is still a spike heal, even if it is only once per 60 seconds, and no, it should not be relied upon for main healing. Heck, I wasn't even claiming Clemency should be relied upon. It is there, however, and I see DRKs using it frequently. They wait until they're halfway or a third or what-not and pop it, and all is good.
DRKs use AD because it's free damage with a bonus of a pitiful heal on top. In trash pulls it's a nice topper upper, but yes the heal it gives is ignorable most of the time. It's just free damage. I'd be more taken aback to hear a DRK ISNT using AD on cooldown.

Kinda wish PLDs would do that with Clemency now and then, because even if it was unnecessary, a Clemency cast, especially if it Crits, lets me get out an extra two Holy, Gravity or sometimes 3 Arts of War which I'm sure would do a wee bit more damage than one Holy Circle would, assuming I was not struggling at the time.
No. Unless you're memeing together with the PLD the PLD gains more from doing damage than letting the healer get another AoW/Gravity, and Holy is arguable IMO but only because Holy stuns build up stun resist on the mobs. And no, a 250 baseline potency holy circle WILL do more than a baseline 140 potency Holy/Gravity // 160 potency AoW, ignoring that Holy Circle would/should have the boost from Requiescat so it'd be even MORE potent.
I'ma have to insist you don't think that this thing here, that a healer AoE GCD at the expense of a holy circle is ever worth. Ever. Strictly speaking, Holy Circle > whatever AoE damage the healer offers; 100% ignoring "bUt ClEmEnCy CuZ hEaLeR cAnT kEeP uP" shenanigans.

And if I was struggling at the time, well, that Clemency just might have saved a wipe.

So.....

While I'm not saying that Clemency should be popped like candy, it is a nice tool that should be used on occasion in certain circumstances.
That's... what's been said by others as well? It's incredibly niche to use and optimizing its usage at all is so beyond galactic brain that I know I'm not capable of attempting to do the maths on it. But what I want to hammer home is You should not expect a PLD to use clemency as the default status quo, and if you get matched with a PLD and they use Clemency assess the smartness of its use.

Maybe I should speak up a bit more, but then, maybe Healers should stop whining about Clemency so much.
Just say you should speak up more. The whole "well yeah but what about other people" thing you did here really comes off as immature.

I know some people in this thread like to paint me as this person who is refusing to listen to input which is simply untrue, who is refusing to take any blame which is also untrue, as I did say that I had missed things like Fey Union and I simply got flustered with the 3-group pull off the bat without warning before I was even mentally ready to deal with that kind of stress, and the fact I didn't know how bad Sacred Soil was because I trusted what the game actually told me about the ability that is apparently false information...
Underlined first. Sacred Soil DOES work as its tooltip says. You were just unaware of how damage mitigation stacks multiplicatively. It's not false information, it's a lack of understanding how the systems in the game function. This one is so common though that it's okay to be mistaken here.
Now. The rest of this comment...

But...

I would like to point out that most of this thread was me going "It wasn't ALL my fault." because I predicted (correctly so) that the majority of those posting in it would try to put 100% (or dang near it) of the blame on me.
The problem is, sure you can accept you made mistakes, no one will deny that. But when you say "well yeah I messed up but so did this other person // Yeah I could've done things better but so could this other person // etc etc" it comes off that you aren't REALLY accepting that you made mistakes and owning up to that. It shows you trying to shirk the responsibility of admittance from yourself and apply that to everyone else/as well. Just look at how you even started this thread to begin with! Even the title itself comes off as "well I might have messed up but YOU MESSED UP WORSE, SPEEDRUNNER PALADIN!!!"

Responses in bold, thanks for coming to my TEDTalk.

[Valic]

They're not skills. They're spells. Spells that take up the global cooldown, which means that in addition to the mana cost there is also an opportunity cost to using them. Red Mage's vercure heals for less than a physick does, by the by, although yes verraise is a controversially powerful utility; raises being the only heals that can target 0 HP party members and having long cast times that RDM can bypass. This doesn't counter, however, that your quote is literally:



Whether you mean it or not, it comes across very silly: How dare a Red Mage just... dps? Ugh. How... barbaric. They should be vercuring to help the Scholar out in Holminster Switch.

Because the point is.. regardless it's still apart of their kit and has uses that people choose to absolutely ignore in favor of "but muh dps". RDM's vercure can be double casted and be practically 1 GCD considering how dualcast works. In any case, every job should consider their full kit, even if it came at a personal cost to themselves, it may be the difference in the party wiping or not.

[Mavrias]

Because the point is.. regardless it's still apart of their kit and has uses that people choose to absolutely ignore in favor of "but muh dps". RDM's vercure can be double casted and be practically 1 GCD considering how dualcast works. In any case, every job should consider their full kit, even if it came at a personal cost to themselves, it may be the difference in the party wiping or not.

Its still 2 GCDs. Just because one is instant, doesn't mean casting vercure twice isn't eating 2 GCDs.