PLDs: You have Clemency for a reason.

[Kabooa]

Clemency will generally buy another GCD.

Crit Req clemencies will buy about 3.

The Tank has to be dealing as much damage as the two DPS combined to justify using Holy Circle instead of Clemency if Clemency will keep them alive, no matter who's fault it is that they're in the danger zone to start with.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

That's if you can get a cast of clemency off in time, if you let the paladin get down to 10-20%, it's pretty much too little too late and something has gone wrong if you're out of oGCDs.

One thing you should NEVER rely on is a crit, but sure if it crits you'll probably live, but if it's a standard clemency, it can still be pretty tight, it heals in around maybe 20% on a high roll outside of req as a non crit. That's not always gonna save you from dying, I am speaking from experience.

I am well aware Aetherflow is 60 seconds, I'm also acutely aware that you made no mention of making use of Dissipation for extra stacks + healing boost in blaming the PLD for not using Clemency. Also did you make use of Fey Union or faerie actions like Fey Illumination or Whispering Dawn, chances are you missed out on using those as do most commonly do while leveling in my experience.

AST I found slightly more challenging before it got any sort of buff to it's healing, but still manageable if the tank used cooldowns, it was pretty rough if they didn't. And if you need a PLD to Clemency with a WHM in the party, then god damn that's a bad WHM,

I'm of the approach that making use of Clemency in these scenarios, coddles healers and doesn't help push them to learn and get better, much in the same way baby pulls don't push them to learn. SCH is more than capable of handling big pulls in holm, especially if the tank makes full use of his defensive cooldowns. This whole matter is the equivalent of asking a healer to take a tankbuster for the tank instead, because they ran out of cooldowns to use.

I'll be completely honest, I never really pay much attention to my HP bar when I tank, I don't really need to, the only person that concerns themselves with my hp is the healer(s), because that is their primary role in a party and I trust that they will keep me alive. I cycle my cooldowns, and rarely have a problem, there is outlier events when you have people that shock you they made it this far into the game and not found some common sense along the way.

[VenKitsune]

Eh, Clemency heals a pretty large chunk of HP. If it crits, it's a rather large portion of their health, nearly half their health, and it just might keep them alive until the next Aetherflow/Essential Dignity/Solace.

Aetherflow is 60 seconds.

If a PLD gets down to like 10-20% of their HP left and dumps a Clemency while the healer is chain-casting Physick or Adlo or whatever, there's a chance that Aetherflow is within 10 seconds of coming up. If Aetherflow comes off cooldown before the PLD drops dead, that's an Excog and 2 Lustrates which should last the rest of the pull until the DPS finishes the rest of the mobs off, easy.

If it's an AST, ED is even shorter, and/or it allows for more Benefic II spam to help bridge the gap if something is going wrong, and/or buy more time for the DPS to finish a mob or two off which drastically reduces the amount of damage the PLD is taking.

Or in case of a WHM, every 30 (or is it 45? I haven't played WHM in awhile) seconds is a new flower and a new flower is a free Cure II. Or maybe Tetra would come off of cooldown, which is another free Cure II.

The point is, one Clemency can buy you several seconds, and several seconds is a LOT of time when it comes to healer abilities coming off of cooldown which could save a wipe.

There's really no reason to go "oh well I'm gonna die I'm not even gonna try to save myself". It just seems so stupid. At least try?

You were talking about Holmester switch, the lvl 71 dungeon? I've leveled 2 healers through that - SCH and WHM, and i was always sitting on abilities and spent most of my time in trash pulls aoeing - These were wall to wall pulls. Sounds like a combination of a tank not using their cooldowns, and you being a bit lower on the gear side. You should never have to use ALL your cooldowns in a single trash pull outside of that one pull near the start of Mt Gulg, maybe.

Having a bad tank in a run shouldnt be basis for tanks to have to use clemency however, that's just silly. Clemency isnt needed if the PLD uses their cooldowns correctly - You may only need to heal them 4-6 times per wall to wall pull if they do and both your gear is up to date.

[Ftail]

Sacred Soil is rly underwhelming for dungeon pulls, you get more value from that AF stack when keepig it for Lustrate, just saying. :v


I don't rly have a lot to say but: both parties did mistakes imo. You could have asked the tank to slow down and the tank was probably wrong to keep pushing after your initial wipe, so a lack of communication on both ends, probably?
PLDs shouldnt need to Clemency per se in regular dungeons tho and you shouldnt really expect ppl to adjust on the fly or at all, bc, well, it's DF and you meet all kinds of ppl.

Sorry for replying so late, after seeing your post I had to add to this.

If you are specifically talking about dungeons under level 78 sync, then yeah sacred soil is really lack luster. I agree with you 100% with saving it for lustrate.

However, if you are talking about all dungeons then I disagree with you when you unlock the +Enhanced Sacred Soil at level 78. The heal provided by Sacred Soil heals more then a Lustrate assuming the person is standing in the circle for the entire duration and then you factor in the damage reduction. It's an absolutely amazing spell once you get the enhanced version of it. So much so I've seen WHM's and AST's call for nerfs to it in the healer forums.

Edit: Just looked it up and +Enhanced Sacred Soil is actually a 500 potency heal ticked 5 times. While Lustrate is a 600 potency heal. I was wrong on SS being a stronger heal then Lustrate. But, my point still stands that SS > Lustrate once you hit 78 just because of the dmg reduction and the fact that it's AOE. You probably already know this though, because your comment was most likely directed to the fact that the OP was in a level 72 or 73? synced dungeon.

[MerlinCross]

We do but any reason to actually use it seems to be "You are currently trying to fix a mistake, willingly losing DPS for no reason, or panicking".

[DubiousDisk]

As a SCH healer that liberally uses Dissipation on gung-ho PLD players, I have never once needed them to cast Clemency, good use of cooldowns makes it near useless in leveling dungeons.

It's great in emergencies, but IMO, JUST in emergencies if the healer is keeping up and the tank is spacing their CDs.

[Miminming]

did you try party chat that allow you kindly try asking the tank to slow down?

Your gear while its under the requirement to enter the dungeon is not what most people expect you to use, asking a tank to use clemency because of healer dont bother to upgrade their gear is quite unfair... and 25% hp is quite suffice in most tank eye for a healer to heal using a few gdc, which should out heal most packs (except the tank is outgear or eat some Aoe)

[Valic]

This entire thread falls under "but my parse tho".

Really though, remember when we actually did our jobs because they had functionality beyond just adding dps? Nowadays it's "just burn it and don't worry about mitigation/healing". RDM's healing? Nah just let the RDM dps constantly and let the healer do their job. Same with ressing for that matter. May as well wipe and do it right the 2nd time everyone's together than take 2 years regaining mana and trying to dps while weakness is in effect.

#Remove Parsing

[Mavrias]

So, I'm reading: no fey union, no faerie abilities, wasting aetherflow on SS pre-78, and no dissipation. Complaining about sprint leads me to believe you were also lagging behind. Stop depending on clemency as a crutch and learn your tools instead.

[furbyoats]

Should PLDs HAVE to use Clemency? Probably not.

Should you feel out the party comp through the pulls and use it to avoid a wipe? YEP