I'm not excited about the future patch at all. Just one dungeon?

[Shurrikhan]

I didn't say anything about the difficulty of the enemies, so what's your point?

I can't fully guess at it at this point. If I had to, I'd suppose it was meant in reference to the difference you mentioned between XIV and WoW dungeons and the suggestion that singular paths in which you're forced to kill everything would make Mythic+-like systems more palatable?

I'd guess then the point would be that having fewer choices or no systems other than "full pull, AoE spam, full pull, AoE spam, boss; repeat" would make such content less palatable, rather than more. Since XIV trash is already, I'd presume, "a joke", requiring that all enemies must be killed would reduce player agency and the number of available stratagems, making trash feel less involved. That might be acceptable if we had engaging bosses to look forward to, and the mob pulls prior were just there for aesthetic or mechanical build-up rather than to be fun in their own right, but our bosses aren't good enough to warrant streamlining what could otherwise be decent content in its own right (engaging mob pulls, in the place of just "trash") even if they were somehow in conflict in how they engage dungeon-runners.

But, I'm probably projecting.

@Omymy

Could you make your connective steps a little clearer or be more explicit with what you've so far left to implication?

[linay]

…

Sorry to have to cut your text.

Honestly, I think the different affixes could've lessened the issue on compositions/meta if you make it like deep dungeon where you cannot change job as you progress (which would also involve some kind of "end" to the progression, at least in terms of reward structure if not difficulty level). Then you'll have to be content with the fact that your chosen job may not be the best all the way through as affixes are changed/added/removed/etc during progression. They could also force you to be in the same party all the way through, again like deep dungeon.

Also, even without timer, most people would run any dungeon as fast as they can anyway, so I don't think that has to be a feature. If anything, why not limit the time you can spend on a dungeon, like an actual enrage? I would rather have that than a timer.

Again, though, if people can articulate what it is they actually want, it would be more beneficial, I think. Just saying Mythic+ for me runs the risk of them just implementing Mythic+ as is and only changing the bare minimum to fit FFXIV. That is not something I would ever want, so I don't want that term to be used as a catch-all term, even if that's the only thing people can think of (or maybe especially because that's the only thing people can think of).

Merely an 'fyi': WoW dungeons give more freedom in what you pull, since they have more mob packs, more CC, greater power in your CDs, larger zones, and far more paths, but they still require that you pull a lot. Along with all the bosses, there's a meter's worth of requirement for mobs killed, so you can't actually skip in Mythic+ what all you could skip at normal difficulty.

Yes, but that goes back to my earlier point about being affected even if I don't engage with the system. Unless it was its own system, whatever they do to design dungeon for Mythic+-like system would trickle down to regular dungeons. And so things that may not be a problem or has a purpose in a Mythic+ setting may suddenly become an inconvenience or even a problem in a regular dungeon run.

[linay]

Some will even allow you your choice between all but the final boss, or have side-bosses not necessary to reach the final one.

That reminded me of one normal dungeon run in BfA where the party was heading to the third boss and the tank said to just go ahead (because there is some waiting as there is some RP going on and a non-combat first phase). What we didn't know at the time was that the tank went straight to the final boss and soloed him, then came back for us to finish the third boss....

[Vahlnir]

I just meant that as relative to XIV and as relevant to skipping mobs. Though they might not amount to much in terms of overall exploration, most WoW dungeons will generally have branching paths at least a few times that allow a choice of mobs or paths wide enough to avoid patrols (which are, oddly, entirely absent from XIV). Some will even allow you your choice between all but the final boss, or have side-bosses not necessary to reach the final one.



It's not just a Classic WoW thing at all, either. If anything, many of the most free-pathing dungeons (at least since Vanilla's) are the more recent ones, from Warlords of Draenor and beyond. There's no broad design change or overall philosophy indicated by their inclusion, but simply numerous dungeons that are built in a more open manner, just as others (like the train dungeon) are built far more tightly. I suspect it's just to give some diversity to the feeling of dungeons, rather than letting them fall into such a consistent rut as, say, XIV's have.

There's plenty of room to wander in some, sure, but it's still a linear path for progression for the most part. To me, going right for a few steps to fight a mini boss doesn't really add up to much, but there is that too I guess. There isn't really multiple paths for people to take until after bosses are down, which comes back to what I said already. From a progression point of view they aren't as free roaming as they used to be. The main ones I can think of in recent memory that gave people the option to decide where to go first was in Legion in the Halls of Valor and maybe that one in Suramar which I can't remember the name of. There was also Karazhan's 5 man dungeon with raid level difficulty, which did indeed give people options. But they were an expansion ago back when things were at least half decent overall. I'm not saying that they don't exist in the game currently or even recently, they just aren't common. Most are designed around mythic+ speedrunning.

[linay]

I can't fully guess at it at this point. If I had to, I'd suppose it was meant in reference to the difference you mentioned between XIV and WoW dungeons and the suggestion that singular paths in which you're forced to kill everything would make Mythic+-like systems more palatable?

I'd guess then the point would be that having fewer choices or no systems other than "full pull, AoE spam, full pull, AoE spam, boss; repeat" would make such content less palatable, rather than more. Since XIV trash is already, I'd presume, "a joke", requiring that all enemies must be killed would reduce player agency and the number of available stratagems, making trash feel less involved. That might be acceptable if we had engaging bosses to look forward to, and the mob pulls prior were just there for aesthetic or mechanical build-up rather than to be fun in their own right, but our bosses aren't good enough to warrant streamlining what could otherwise be decent content in its own right (engaging mob pulls, in the place of just "trash") even if they were somehow in conflict in how they engage dungeon-runners.

But, I'm probably projecting.

@Omymy

Could you make your connective steps a little clearer or be more explicit with what you've so far left to implication?

Well, the trash are a "joke" in the context of a normal FFXIV dungeon. I would assume that would not be the case in a system that is supposed to provide some challenge, at least for midcore level if not higher, so I don't think the state of normal dungeon difficulty is relevant.

[Shurrikhan]

Foremost issues first:

Yes, but that goes back to my earlier point about being affected even if I don't engage with the system. Unless it was its own system, whatever they do to design dungeon for Mythic+-like system would trickle down to regular dungeons. And so things that may not be a problem or has a purpose in a Mythic+ setting may suddenly become an inconvenience or even a problem in a regular dungeon run.

Then, what are we willing to see in regular dungeons?

I don't just not fear CC, kiting, or split paths, for instance; I want to see those things again.

If anything, why not limit the time you can spend on a dungeon, like an actual enrage? I would rather have that than a timer.

Though early completions will provide bonus chests, the main purpose of the timer (as becomes obvious at higher difficulties) IS an enrage. You get done in those 60 minutes or so (some dungeons have slightly more or less time based on average and theoretical completion times when accounting for risk, rather than standardizing dungeon designs), or you fail. That's an enrage.

Also, even without timer, most people would run any dungeon as fast as they can anyway, so I don't think that has to be a feature.

That depends entirely on the difficulty. When dungeons lack for difficulty, they also tend to lack for engagement along with lacking for risk, making people want doubly to speed-run them, and therefore favoring high nominal risk (still low actual risk) for far high rewards. But when dungeons are honestly challenging, and other mechanics (even something as simple as running back) punish deaths, turtle comps are doubly desirable if additional damage does not somehow likewise avert risk. That latter part requires either that they play a short-term part in survival (such as through stagger systems and dps checks via especially dangerous encounters or mobs therein), a long-term part in survival (such as vs. enrage or meeting pace-based opportunity checks or the like), or a combination of both. As WoW had no stagger system and such dps checks would tend to favor, say, classes with bursty single-target damage far more than high sustained damage, they felt timers were necessary to maintain compositional balance and have it feel appropriate (which would still be an issue even if they forced their usual numbers of each role).

I think WoW sided with having a timer that was excessive until very high difficulty in order to give people multiple chances on whatever pulls or bosses would be most difficult to them, i.e. to provide learning opportunities and some lenience. Rather than providing a "one size fits all" tighter constraint from the start, they created a more lenient window and then a couple bonus windows to shoot for, albeit with considerably heightened difficulty. One could therefore turtle to more reliably succeed, but would then lose out on bonuses, the bulk of which would be progression itself (increasing key by 2 ranks to more quickly climb through difficulties that are apparently beneath one's party).

In a lot of ways, that timer still peeves me, as there's some combination of how it and the pulls themselves work, or even just how tanking and support works in that game that makes Mythic+ prior to the highest difficulties feel more... plain than they should, similar to but not quite as badly as XIV's dungeons end up feeling plain through constant speedrunning. But I'm not sure yet how to design a good alternative to that. I'm thinking through some organic solutions for now.

One of those spitball solutions involves player choice in what kind of challenge they face. For instance, one might choose (alike to an affix, but... chosen) a Trial of Wind as to be more greatly challenged in regards to pacing, while also reshaping the dungeon incidentally (through some subtle but effective added mechanics) to also improve that speedrunning experience. It's a work in progress, but I'll share it if/when it seems to have any merit.

Well, the trash are a "joke" in the context of a normal FFXIV dungeon. I would assume that would not be the case in a system that is supposed to provide some challenge, at least for midcore level if not higher, so I don't think the state of normal dungeon difficulty is relevant.

Right, but you'd still need to develop undermechanics ahead of time. You can't expect CC and other factors of interest in progressive difficulty ("Mythic+") settings after you've already removed it from everyone's kits or made all mobs immune to it. You'd have to first "un-prune" some toolkits and "un-waste" some of those skills' effects. At which point, design would beg the question, "Why isn't this being used in Normal, too?"

For my own part, I want to see that stuff used in normal modes as well. I'd like even normal modes to have a bit more challenge so that we can see some unique impact from our kits and have more than just a single competitive strategy. But what about you? You haven't yet given me enough details to even guess from.

[Shurrikhan]

There's plenty of room to wander in some, sure, but it's still a linear path for progression for the most part. To me, going right for a few steps to fight a mini boss doesn't really add up to much, but there is that too I guess. There isn't really multiple paths for people to take until after bosses are down, which comes back to what I said already. From a progression point of view they aren't as free roaming as they used to be. The main ones I can think of in recent memory that gave people the option to decide where to go first was in Legion in the Halls of Valor and maybe that one in Suramar which I can't remember the name of. There was also Karazhan's 5 man dungeon with raid level difficulty, which did indeed give people options. But they were an expansion ago back when things were at least half decent overall. I'm not saying that they don't exist in the game currently or even recently, they just aren't common. Most are designed around mythic+ speedrunning.

I never said WoW's dungeons weren't still linear. The question I was answering was strictly in regards to issues that could come from mob skipping (especially if made obligatory by timers and no kill-meter).

Many WoW dungeons would indeed have enough skipping available due to design to run into obligatory mob-skipping or conflicts over which way to go first if they had a timer and no kill-meter or too tight a timer in general. Thus, I wanted to clarify that even those dungeons were kept in check by a simple addition (the kill-meter), and would not necessitate streamlined design (though ours are already far, far more streamlined).

[linay]

Foremost issues first:



Then, what are we willing to see in regular dungeons?

I don't just not fear CC, kiting, or split paths, for instance; I want to see those things again.

CC/kiting/etc, anything to do with enemy mechanics (except avoidance) is fine by me. As I've said, I never mentioned anything about enemy difficulty. I don't want split paths/optional paths/optional rooms/etc. I want to fully clear the dungeon, that means going through the whole dungeon and killing everything.

Different people will have different opinions on this, but that's mine.

Though early completions will provide bonus chests, the main purpose of the timer (as becomes obvious at higher difficulties) IS an enrage. You get done in those 60 minutes or so (some dungeons have slightly more or less time based on average and theoretical completion times when accounting for risk, rather than standardizing dungeon designs), or you fail. That's an enrage.

Yeah, but many people just stop at +10 (or whatever the highest for gear was/will be).

That latter part requires either that they play a short-term part in survival (such as through stagger systems and dps checks via especially dangerous encounters or mobs therein), a long-term part in survival (such as vs. enrage or meeting pace-based opportunity checks or the like), or a combination of both.

I think all those are fine. And like I said, fixed job/party with the use of different affixes that matter (without going overboard) could lessen the desire for specific comps over others.

Right, but you'd still need to develop undermechanics ahead of time. You can't expect CC and other factors of interest in progressive difficulty ("Mythic+") settings after you've already removed it from everyone's kits or made all mobs immune to it. You'd have to "un-prune" some toolkits and "un-waste" some of those skills' effects.

Indeed, again another example of ways this kind of system could affect even those not engaged in it.

[Shurrikhan]

Yeah, but many people just stop at +10 (or whatever the highest for gear was/will be).

Right, but we don't have to cap the rewards there. Heck, you can make it a relative cap, such as for the top 10%, using a leaderboard instead of aiming for a hard cap. Get as far as last week's top 10% and you get a reward; raise the bar and you get another; and so long as you hold your place in the top 10% you hold a persistent buff. (For my current spitball headcanon system... Adept of Wind/Fire/Earth/etc. or whatnot. *Shrug.*)

I think all those are fine. And like I said, fixed job/party with the use of different affixes that matter (without going overboard) could lessen the desire for specific comps over others.

Please note that I'm not saying this just to be contrary. I think that depends on how the affixes are applied. For instance, with player choice we can let players choose the affix that's right for what they want to play, and that'd be fine. Or with it being random "per key" (for a Mythic+ analog) or "per anima book" or whatever, we'd have to try to make the best of whoever has that book or page or trial or w/e and fit the rest of the comp to match, and that could be okay, too. But if it's anything like the seasonal affixes WoW has, we'd just be rotating FotMs, which I don't think is okay. (E.g. virtually every way but the way WoW does it... would probably work.)

But yes, if we can get it too mostly work even without affixes, and as long as the affixes themselves don't break the whole point of our dungeon designs (i.e. not to create a dominant meta or job), it should be fine.

Indeed, again another example of ways this kind of system could affect even those not engaged in it.

Again, I haven't said that a new system wouldn't affect systems existing prior to it. I think it will. I just also think the positives will be felt more deeply and by more people than will any negatives.

[linay]

Right, but we don't have to cap the rewards there. Heck, you can make it a relative cap, such as for the top 10%, using a leaderboard instead of aiming for a hard cap. Get as far as last week's top 10% and you get a reward; raise the bar and you get another; and so long as you hold your place in the top 10% you hold a persistent buff. (For my current spitball headcanon system... Adept of Wind/Fire/Earth/etc. or whatnot. *Shrug.*)


Please note that I'm not saying this just to be contrary. I think that depends on how the affixes are applied. For instance, with player choice we can let players choose the affix that's right for what they want to play, and that'd be fine. Or with it being random "per key" (for a Mythic+ analog) or "per anima book" or whatever, we'd have to try to make the best of whoever has that book or page or trial or w/e and fit the rest of the comp to match, and that could be okay, too. But if it's anything like the seasonal affixes WoW has, we'd just be rotating FotMs, which I don't think is okay. (E.g. virtually every way but the way WoW does it... would probably work.)

But yes, if we can get it too mostly work even without affixes, and as long as the affixes themselves don't break the whole point of our dungeon designs (i.e. not to create a dominant meta or job), it should be fine.


Again, I haven't said that it wouldn't. I think it will. I just also think the positives will be felt more deeply and by more people than will any negatives.

Note, my response isn't just solely for you, but also somewhat to anyone else who might be reading, so I'm not saying that you're necessarily saying anything, just giving some comments.

And, of course, everything depends on implementations. And like I said, I'm not good at thinking up ideas, and really would rather not and just leave it to the devs.