I'm not excited about the future patch at all. Just one dungeon?

[TheGrimace]

I want more dungeons again.

[linay]

Again, no one has even once asked for Mythic+, only a system that can accomplish something "like" what Mythic+ did. That is an incredibly "broad set" of options by which to expand midcore content, a frequently requested "improvement".

Progressive likewise does not mean limitless. It just means that you can start into it sooner and finish it later with finer increments of success, both more accessible and longer-lasting. It's the difference between a piece of content seeming directed solely at one group of players or another or challenging players to get as far as they can, pushing their own limits.

Well if you can clarify what you mean, then I can reserve judgment.

Actually, let me just clarify what I don't like about Mythic+

1. Timed run, especially with WoW's dungeon layout. If it's with FFXIV's current dungeon layout, it might be better (but I still dislike timed run in general), but I don't want the dungeon layout to change to something I may not like due to a Mythic+ system.
2. Progression (including negative progression) based on the timer, not just on completing the dungeon. (This is different from enrage mechanics that are intended to not make you waste time on a fight by pure brute force because you can still complete the dungeon even if you didn't beat the time.)
3. No lockouts combined with WoW's gearing system. If it were to fit FFXIV's system, like giving tomestone which is capped, then it might be better (but I still don't like the time issue in general). You can choose to continue doing it, but not because of gearing.

This one is minor:
4. Some of the affixes are silly, but that's just mechanics, and I've enjoyed FFXIV's mechanics so far.

Our dungeons are already identical to Mythic+ inspired dungeons except in that XIV's are less creative in their variety of pull sizes and diversity of mobs (via variety in mob strength and the strength of their skills and effects). We're already working from a far, far more constrained base.

If our dungeons were all alike to 1.x's Cutter's Cry, complete with the party being split up at certain points or having to navigate the shifting sand wormholes, that would be an issue. But we never had a dungeon that would uniquely make just a few jobs far stronger than they should be except perhaps the few dungeons where a particular immunity (usually Hallowed Ground, unless a boss is incredibly deadly, in which case the other HG) is perfectly timed to the benefits of speedruns.

Designing for multiple difficulties has only two concerns:

1. Making sure difficulty scales well by not using fixed damage mechanics (e.g. the same %HP regardless of difficulty) or letting issues slide like auto-attacks hitting at the same time as tankbusters (which might just randomly and unavoidably one-shot a tank at higher difficulties) and
2. Making sure no jobs are obligatory for the dungeon's completion or give a huge lead in speed over other compositions.

Those aren't huge constraints and would make no difference to our current dungeon designs. Our dungeons would have to actually be creative -- immensely so -- before it could have any impact on us.

Comparing the dungeons I run in Stormblood and Shadowbringers to those I ran in Legion, and especially BfA, I would disagree that they're identical. The big difference is that you still cannot avoid enemies and bosses in FFXIV's current dungeons. You have to clear everything (which actually would make Mythic+ more palatable if that were the case, just a bit).

[Omymy]

Well if you can clarify what you mean, then I can reserve judgment.

Actually, let me just clarify what I don't like about Mythic+

1. Timed run, especially with WoW's dungeon layout. If it's with FFXIV's current dungeon layout, it might be better (but I still dislike timed run in general), but I don't want the dungeon layout to change to something I may not like due to a Mythic+ system.
2. Progression (including negative progression) based on the timer, not just on completing the dungeon. (This is different from enrage mechanics that are intended to not make you waste time on a fight by pure brute force because you can still complete the dungeon even if you didn't beat the time.)
3. No lockouts combined with WoW's gearing system. If it were to fit FFXIV's system, like giving tomestone which is capped, then it might be better (but I still don't like the time issue in general). You can choose to continue doing it, but not because of gearing.

This one is minor:
4. Some of the affixes are silly, but that's just mechanics, and I've enjoyed FFXIV's mechanics so far.

Comparing the dungeons I run in Stormblood and Shadowbringers to those I ran in Legion, and especially BfA, I would disagree that they're identical. The big difference is that you still cannot avoid enemies and bosses in FFXIV's current dungeons. You have to clear everything (which actually would make Mythic+ more palatable if that were the case, just a bit).

FFXIV dungeons are just wall to wall, enemies without mechanics (you event need to apply CCs). What are you talking about.

Even the bosses are a joke.

[Noitems]

I'm okay with one dungeon if it means we get more fun filled ones, especially with revisiting. Based on what we know from pictures it seems like a spectacle where a lot of time and effort was put into making the zone. That alone gets me more interested in it since it's a lot of stuff to take in each time we run through.

Not knocking the dungeons we had in 4.x but the odd numbered ones where there was specifically one dungeon had a lot more going on. Skalla, Swallow's Compass, Ghimlyt Dark all had some amazing set pieces and really added to the zones. Meanwhile if you look at 4.2 and 4.4 it's way more reused assets and the dungeons blend into each other. If you go on the youtube comments for a video showing off the music for Hell's Lid some of the comments are just "Sohm Al HM 2.0". That's not something I'd like to put on a dungeon I just made lmao. Hard Modes are a given but they do show that more of the assets are reused which in turn leads to "Meh".

More so than dungeons we're getting an extra trial instead, which will be great since it turn means another EX, so more options for the battle team to make some great fights and flesh out our experiences. I'm sad that dungeons are being cut to one, but if it allows other content I'm going to run more actively be a constant I'm okay with taking that cut.

[linay]

FFXIV dungeons are just wall to wall, enemies without mechanics (you event need to apply CCs). What are you talking about.

Even the bosses are a joke.

I didn't say anything about the difficulty of the enemies, so what's your point?

[Eli85]

I'm not terribly excited about the patch either, for different reasons.

To address dungeons. Dungeons, in their current form, are the biggest waste of development money. They are consumed very quickly, are not challenging in the slightest, and the lion's share of them are abandoned unless you happen to get them in a leveling roulette. I also love dungeons, so don't think I'm hating on them, but because they're so under utilized, until something like a Mythic+ system comes in, we're better off with less.

As for the rest of the patch: while the content appears good, it's all content that will be consumed within a week, and if you care to do it more than once, you'll be done within a couple hours on subsequent reset nights. This is my biggest problem with FF XIV right now. It's an amazing game, but very little, if any, of the content has any longevity, and it's certainly not enough to justify the $12.99 USD sub.

I really wish we would see more not mind-numbing boring content (looking at you Eureka and Deep Dungeon) that lasts more than a couple hours.

[Shurrikhan]

Well if you can clarify what you mean, then I can reserve judgment.

Actually, let me just clarify what I don't like about Mythic+

1. Timed run, especially with WoW's dungeon layout. If it's with FFXIV's current dungeon layout, it might be better (but I still dislike timed run in general), but I don't want the dungeon layout to change to something I may not like due to a Mythic+ system.
2. Progression (including negative progression) based on the timer, not just on completing the dungeon. (This is different from enrage mechanics that are intended to not make you waste time on a fight by pure brute force because you can still complete the dungeon even if you didn't beat the time.)
3. No lockouts combined with WoW's gearing system. If it were to fit FFXIV's system, like giving tomestone which is capped, then it might be better (but I still don't like the time issue in general). You can choose to continue doing it, but not because of gearing.

This one is minor:
4. Some of the affixes are silly, but that's just mechanics, and I've enjoyed FFXIV's mechanics so far.

There, thank you. That I can completely work with!

Personally, I'm on the same side in regards to these issues. (I just don't think they're part and parcel of Mythic+ so much as just some of the little decisions that could have gone any other way.) That said, their removal would be... complicated.

At present, timers enforce a "damage meta", so to speak. But, the complete removal of timers would likely enforce the opposite, e.g. a PLD, DRK/WAR, WHM/SCH, and RDM, or the like.

Let's go back to the earlier condition for progressive difficulty design, "Making sure no jobs are obligatory for the dungeon's completion or give a huge lead in speed over other compositions." Now, because XIV more easily allows for multi-leveling than does WoW (or, will until WoW's next expansion, where that will likely flip on its head), and because XIV jobs have fewer distinct advantages than their WoW spec counterparts, we don't actually have to be as worried about the first part -- the unique toolkits just aren't really there to abuse -- the second part is still a concern.

So give these opposite extremes a simple label. On the rush-rush-rush side of design, we have the "damage meta". For virtually all other whole-dungeon constraints, or whenever there is no reason to rush (which would also require that the dungeon is not spammable, for better or worse), the "turtle meta" takes the fore. We want to allow for all jobs to see play, which means we don't want either meta to dominate, right?

Now, I'd be fine with progressive-difficulty dungeons not being spammable. Maw of Souls spam was wretched. I'd rather play a key until I fail and then either stop there, my streak ended for now, or a reroll into a lower difficulty in a new dungeon with few if any rewards until I'm back up to where I was (so I'd only try progging again if I felt sure I could get further this time). So, that takes one stone out from under the damage meta, at the mere cost of not being able to use this new content mode as much as we want (and therefore tiring of it early on or making it a means of most-efficient currency acquisition than something to do for fun -- which, again, I'd be glad to avoid).

But, there still has to be something within the dungeon run itself that makes time an issue, or else we're going to force "turtle comp" except where players badly overpower the difficulty setting they're at, which we'd ideally want to keep at only a brief time (i.e. we'd rather maximize the time players spend at difficulties appropriate for themselves, only going out of their favored zone when helping friends or being helped by them). I, too, dislike the timer making the dungeon feel a little overly... "gameified", which tends to sap some of its uniqueness.

If either WoW or XIV had particularly creative dungeons, I might rather see those timers as opportunities given throughout a sprawling dungeon, like being able to intercept a boss before he's gotten into his mech by either rushing to him or preventing alarms from going off, both things that would favor "damage meta", which I'd then balance out with things that favor a "turtle meta" or a balance of the two in other (likely later) parts of the dungeon. The "timers" would still exist, but they'd feel more natural -- part of the dungeon itself rather than just trying to beat a clock.

Obviously, I see how we handle timers (and thus dominant metas) as the biggest challenge in how XIV can allow for progressive-difficulty dungeons, but that's not to say that in testing more organic means of introducing something like them into XIV (e.g. starting from a concept like elements, materia, cards, or whatnot, and seeing how far they can take us) we might stumble into solutions for both that and the more minor things (like some of WoW's affixes not being particularly fun, even if they certainly change how the dungeon is played).

Comparing the dungeons I run in Stormblood and Shadowbringers to those I ran in Legion, and especially BfA, I would disagree that they're identical. The big difference is that you still cannot avoid enemies and bosses in FFXIV's current dungeons. You have to clear everything (which actually would make Mythic+ more palatable if that were the case, just a bit).

Merely an 'fyi': WoW dungeons give more freedom in what you pull, since they have more mob packs, more CC, greater power in your CDs, larger zones, and far more paths, but they still require that you pull a lot. Along with all the bosses, there's a meter's worth of requirement for mobs killed, so you can't actually skip in Mythic+ what all you could skip at normal difficulty.

[MsQi]

Merely an 'fyi': WoW dungeons give more freedom in what you pull, since they have more mob packs, more CC, greater power in your CDs, larger zones, and far more paths, but they still require that you pull a lot. Along with all the bosses, there's a meter's worth of requirement for mobs killed, so you can't actually skip in Mythic+ what all you could skip at normal difficulty.

Do they? Last I played seriously during Mists most dungeons and raids were very linear. Have they gone back to the Vanilla style? Of course FFXIV has never had a BRD or Sunken Temple (original).

[Vahlnir]

Do they? Last I played seriously during Mists most dungeons and raids were very linear. Have they gone back to the Vanilla style? Of course FFXIV has never had a BRD or Sunken Temple (original).

They're still pretty linear with very, very few exceptions. This is more of a Classic WoW thing now which is a 15 year old game.

[Shurrikhan]

Do they? Last I played seriously during Mists most dungeons and raids were very linear. Have they gone back to the Vanilla style? Of course FFXIV has never had a BRD or Sunken Temple (original).

I just meant that as relative to XIV and as relevant to skipping mobs. Though they might not amount to much in terms of overall exploration, most WoW dungeons will generally have branching paths at least a few times that allow a choice of mobs or paths wide enough to avoid patrols (which are, oddly, entirely absent from XIV). Some will even allow you your choice between all but the final boss, or have side-bosses not necessary to reach the final one.

They're still pretty linear with very, very few exceptions. This is more of a Classic WoW thing now which is a 15 year old game.

It's not just a Classic WoW thing at all, either. If anything, many of the most free-pathing dungeons (at least since Vanilla's) are the more recent ones, from Warlords of Draenor and beyond. There's no broad design change or overall philosophy indicated by their inclusion, but simply numerous dungeons that are built in a more open manner, just as others (like the train dungeon) are built far more tightly. I suspect it's just to give some diversity to the feeling of dungeons, rather than letting them fall into such a consistent rut as, say, XIV's have.