The 5.2 dungeon looks like it'll be a lore bomb

[Wyssahtyn]

Don't forget that the original Amaurot dungeon is basically an echo flashback as well.

What? No it's not. It's a recreation created through magical means by Emet-Selch. It's not even a flashback and the Echo isn't even involved.

[Eloah]

What? No it's not. It's a recreation created through magical means by Emet-Selch. It's not even a flashback and the Echo isn't even involved.

I think you are misinterpreting what I mean. Remember the Ascians have the Echo too. It's not our Echo being used its Emet-Selch's. He's using it along with his creation magic to make it tangible. This is brought up when we talk with Hythlodaeus about how he is aware that he isn't real and just a memory.

We still don't know that much about the Echo, but what we do know is it allows us to experience things from the perspective of another individual. In the dungeon we are experiencing Emet-Selchs memory of the Star.

I'm not 100% saying it is the Echo. But functionally, it's acting the same way.

[Iscah]

I think you are misinterpreting what I mean. Remember the Ascians have the Echo too. It's not our Echo being used its Emet-Selch's. He's using it along with his creation magic to make it tangible. This is brought up when we talk with Hythlodaeus about how he is aware that he isn't real and just a memory.

That isn't really anything to do with the Echo. He's just drawing on his memories, and recreating things as he remembers them - you don't need the Echo for that.

I don't see how it's "fiunctionally acting the same way" at all. It's giving the same end result, perhaps, but in a completely different way. The Echo (as we experience it) is a vision triggered by specific, uncontrollable circumstances, witnessed by us alone. The illusions of Amaurot are solid and tangible to anyone there, and permanent for as long as the magic holds.

We're not seeing his memories directly, but a manufactured recreation of what he once saw - potentially with some artistic license. (Did he *really* ascend to the heavens and defeat Therion? Or is he just giving us an impressive view?)

[Eloah]

That isn't really anything to do with the Echo. He's just drawing on his memories, and recreating things as he remembers them - you don't need the Echo for that.

I don't see how it's "fiunctionally acting the same way" at all. It's giving the same end result, perhaps, but in a completely different way. The Echo (as we experience it) is a vision triggered by specific, uncontrollable circumstances, witnessed by us alone. The illusions of Amaurot are solid and tangible to anyone there, and permanent for as long as the magic holds.

We're not seeing his memories directly, but a manufactured recreation of what he once saw - potentially with some artistic license. (Did he *really* ascend to the heavens and defeat Therion? Or is he just giving us an impressive view?)

You're basically repeating what I am saying. That's why I said it's basically the Echo. It's not ours, if anything it's his. He has Creation magic, so by using his Echo to recall his past he was able to create Amaurot. Admittedly, that is speculating, but it has merit given the Ascians, and in game resources. Regardless of how "perfect" he is, his memories aren't everlasting, they would suffer from decay like everyone elses. But by using the Echo, he could have a flawless memory, sorta. As I said we don't know a whole lot about it, but we know its main function.

And that's the reason I mentioned our conversation with Hythlodaeus, since he mentions the recreation process, and how he might of gained sentience. Additionally, the conversation starts with the Echo "headache".

What we are experiencing is not our Echo, it might not 100% be Emet-Selch's, I am merely stating that the Echo is involved to a degree to allow us to experience things as they were in the past. Which is why I said its basically an Echo fashback.

[Wyssahtyn]

Additionally, the conversation starts with the Echo "headache".

Except... it doesn't. The emote used isn't even the same as what is typically used to denote an Echo flashback. Furthermore it's plainly obvious in the cutscene itself that it's just the WoL undergoing another fit as their soul further fractures under the strain of containing the Lightwardens' aether.

[Iscah]

so by using his Echo to recall his past...

But there's no indication that he's using "the Echo" to recreate Amaurot. It's simply a model based on his memories - the normal sort that everyone has, given form by creation magic.

When Hythlodaeus describes how he came into being, he just said that Emet must have had a stray thought during the creation process that led to his self-awareness.

Having just rewatched the scene to check, because I didn't remember any suggestion that it was an Echo vision, I also disagree that is starts with an "Echo headache". It's one of the moments where the Light threatens to overwhelm us, with the accompanying white glow and cracking-glass sound effect. It's not the Echo's 'whooshing' lead-in and the scene shows none of the sepia-tone or distortion that accompanies those visions. Neither is there any "Echo over" indication at the end.

[Eloah]

Except... it doesn't. The emote used isn't even the same as what is typically used to denote an Echo flashback. Furthermore it's plainly obvious in the cutscene itself that it's just the WoL undergoing another fit as their soul further fractures under the strain of containing the Lightwardens' aether.

I didn't say the conversation was an Echo, I just said it starts with the same "headache". And after rewatching it for a second time, I can see more of the light poisoning aspect. All this Echo talk made me forget that plot device for a second.

But there's no indication that he's using "the Echo" to recreate Amaurot. It's simply a model based on his memories - the normal sort that everyone has, given form by creation magic.

When Hythlodaeus describes how he came into being, he just said that Emet must have had a stray thought during the creation process that led to his self-awareness.

Having just rewatched the scene to check, because I didn't remember any suggestion that it was an Echo vision, I also disagree that is starts with an "Echo headache". It's one of the moments where the Light threatens to overwhelm us, with the accompanying white glow and cracking-glass sound effect. It's not the Echo's 'whooshing' lead-in and the scene shows none of the sepia-tone or distortion that accompanies those visions. Neither is there any "Echo over" indication at the end.

You are missing the forest for the trees in what I am saying.

I rewatched the scene again, and yes I can admit the light poisoning plot device escaped me for a minute, because of all this Echo back and forth. But I never said it was an Echo encounter, just that it was the similar emote we always do when entering an Echo.

Let's put it this way to hopefully end all of this back and forth, since what I am trying to convey is getting muddled now. What is happening is Echo adjacent. Could it be the Echo in some capacity, yes, do we know for sure, no. What we do know is that the end result is very similar to what the Echo provides

[RicaRuin]

Wasn't Emet-Selch simply using his Creation magic to recreate Amaurot as he remembered it? Creation magic and the Echo are different things.

[Eloah]

Wasn't Emet-Selch simply using his Creation magic to recreate Amaurot as he remembered it? Creation magic and the Echo are different things.

Shoot me please, no one is understanding any of this it seems.

[RicaRuin]

He has Creation magic, so by using his Echo to recall his past he was able to create Amaurot. [...] Regardless of how "perfect" he is, his memories aren't everlasting, they would suffer from decay like everyone elses. But by using the Echo, he could have a flawless memory, sorta.

You might be the one slightly off the track. His Creation magic alone is enough to recreate Amaurot, and since the Ascians don't grow older in the common sense, their memory doesn't decay either. Especially with how much Hades/Emet-Selch cares about Amaurot, it is unlikely that he would forget.

Also, the Echo is not like a convenient external hard drive / extra memory of the one possessing it, rather, it shows you the past of other individuals.