The 5.2 dungeon looks like it'll be a lore bomb

[Wyssahtyn]

Don't forget that the original Amaurot dungeon is basically an echo flashback as well.

What? No it's not. It's a recreation created through magical means by Emet-Selch. It's not even a flashback and the Echo isn't even involved.

[Eloah]

What? No it's not. It's a recreation created through magical means by Emet-Selch. It's not even a flashback and the Echo isn't even involved.

I think you are misinterpreting what I mean. Remember the Ascians have the Echo too. It's not our Echo being used its Emet-Selch's. He's using it along with his creation magic to make it tangible. This is brought up when we talk with Hythlodaeus about how he is aware that he isn't real and just a memory.

We still don't know that much about the Echo, but what we do know is it allows us to experience things from the perspective of another individual. In the dungeon we are experiencing Emet-Selchs memory of the Star.

I'm not 100% saying it is the Echo. But functionally, it's acting the same way.

[Iscah]

I think you are misinterpreting what I mean. Remember the Ascians have the Echo too. It's not our Echo being used its Emet-Selch's. He's using it along with his creation magic to make it tangible. This is brought up when we talk with Hythlodaeus about how he is aware that he isn't real and just a memory.

That isn't really anything to do with the Echo. He's just drawing on his memories, and recreating things as he remembers them - you don't need the Echo for that.

I don't see how it's "fiunctionally acting the same way" at all. It's giving the same end result, perhaps, but in a completely different way. The Echo (as we experience it) is a vision triggered by specific, uncontrollable circumstances, witnessed by us alone. The illusions of Amaurot are solid and tangible to anyone there, and permanent for as long as the magic holds.

We're not seeing his memories directly, but a manufactured recreation of what he once saw - potentially with some artistic license. (Did he *really* ascend to the heavens and defeat Therion? Or is he just giving us an impressive view?)

[Eloah]

That isn't really anything to do with the Echo. He's just drawing on his memories, and recreating things as he remembers them - you don't need the Echo for that.

I don't see how it's "fiunctionally acting the same way" at all. It's giving the same end result, perhaps, but in a completely different way. The Echo (as we experience it) is a vision triggered by specific, uncontrollable circumstances, witnessed by us alone. The illusions of Amaurot are solid and tangible to anyone there, and permanent for as long as the magic holds.

We're not seeing his memories directly, but a manufactured recreation of what he once saw - potentially with some artistic license. (Did he *really* ascend to the heavens and defeat Therion? Or is he just giving us an impressive view?)

You're basically repeating what I am saying. That's why I said it's basically the Echo. It's not ours, if anything it's his. He has Creation magic, so by using his Echo to recall his past he was able to create Amaurot. Admittedly, that is speculating, but it has merit given the Ascians, and in game resources. Regardless of how "perfect" he is, his memories aren't everlasting, they would suffer from decay like everyone elses. But by using the Echo, he could have a flawless memory, sorta. As I said we don't know a whole lot about it, but we know its main function.

And that's the reason I mentioned our conversation with Hythlodaeus, since he mentions the recreation process, and how he might of gained sentience. Additionally, the conversation starts with the Echo "headache".

What we are experiencing is not our Echo, it might not 100% be Emet-Selch's, I am merely stating that the Echo is involved to a degree to allow us to experience things as they were in the past. Which is why I said its basically an Echo fashback.

[Wyssahtyn]

Additionally, the conversation starts with the Echo "headache".

Except... it doesn't. The emote used isn't even the same as what is typically used to denote an Echo flashback. Furthermore it's plainly obvious in the cutscene itself that it's just the WoL undergoing another fit as their soul further fractures under the strain of containing the Lightwardens' aether.

[Iscah]

so by using his Echo to recall his past...

But there's no indication that he's using "the Echo" to recreate Amaurot. It's simply a model based on his memories - the normal sort that everyone has, given form by creation magic.

When Hythlodaeus describes how he came into being, he just said that Emet must have had a stray thought during the creation process that led to his self-awareness.

Having just rewatched the scene to check, because I didn't remember any suggestion that it was an Echo vision, I also disagree that is starts with an "Echo headache". It's one of the moments where the Light threatens to overwhelm us, with the accompanying white glow and cracking-glass sound effect. It's not the Echo's 'whooshing' lead-in and the scene shows none of the sepia-tone or distortion that accompanies those visions. Neither is there any "Echo over" indication at the end.

[RicaRuin]

He has Creation magic, so by using his Echo to recall his past he was able to create Amaurot. [...] Regardless of how "perfect" he is, his memories aren't everlasting, they would suffer from decay like everyone elses. But by using the Echo, he could have a flawless memory, sorta.

You might be the one slightly off the track. His Creation magic alone is enough to recreate Amaurot, and since the Ascians don't grow older in the common sense, their memory doesn't decay either. Especially with how much Hades/Emet-Selch cares about Amaurot, it is unlikely that he would forget.

Also, the Echo is not like a convenient external hard drive / extra memory of the one possessing it, rather, it shows you the past of other individuals.

[Eloah]

You might be the one slightly off the track. His Creation magic alone is enough to recreate Amaurot, and since the Ascians don't grow older in the common sense, their memory doesn't decay either. Especially with how much Hades/Emet-Selch cares about Amaurot, it is unlikely that he would forget.

Also, the Echo is not like a convenient external hard drive / extra memory of the one possessing it, rather, it shows you the past of other individuals.

No, I'm not. But I think I know why no one else is getting it. I made the comment after translating the Japanese title of the new patch. And the actual Japanese term is Reminisce, not Echo as we know it. I think people are being thrown off since the English title uses the term Echo in two different forms, and since the dev's mentioned the Echo mechanic will be involved, they are stuck on what we know and what has been explained to us.

But since the Japanese term is different, I'm able to understand what is being implied and applied that backwards to our previous experience in Amaurot. Since in Amaurot it's Reminiscing about the moment the Star "fell"

I think that's why no one is understanding me. There is a dissonance between the two terms and what they imply.

Also about him forgetting things. It's not about him simply forgetting, but the finer details he wants to remember, like color, placement, time, etc.

Additionally though, I mentioned we don't know a whole lot about the Echo, and we know the Ascians have it too. For all we know, the Echo is a form of creation magic. In fact I'd bet it is.

[LineageRazor]

Additionally though, I mentioned we don't know a whole lot about the Echo, and we know the Ascians have it too. For all we know, the Echo is a form of creation magic. In fact I'd bet it is.

I'm pretty sure I understand what you're getting at with the Echo, that Emet is using it to create a perfect recreation of the past, because relying on his own memory would be, well, unreliable, as no one can maintain perfect memory for twelve thousand years.

However, I see this as just fan speculation. There's been no hint in-game that Emet required any special help to recreate Amaurat. Additionally, your speculation depends on the assumption that Ancients' memories degrade over time, just as ours do. But Ancients are not like us - in fact, they are played up to be practically gods. This COULD, in fact, include flawless and limitless memory (and even if not flawless and limitless, certainly a mere twelve thousand years would be little more than an eyeblink to them, much as it is for Dragons).

I do suspect that the Echo is linked in some manner to Creation, largely in that it's a remnant of our Ancient heritage. Mortals are flawed, fractured Ancients, and that means that we have remnants and vestiges of what the Ancients had. Our ability to manipulate Aether may barely be a blip on the Ancients' radar, but it's essentially the same thing, just far more limited in scale. The Echo could be similar - though it's notable that aether manipulation is nearly universal, while Echo manifests in only a few...