Red Mage is top tier - [job effectiveness = player skill]

[ReiMakoto]

That's great and all.

But after personal experience now with RDM.

I simply do not and have never spent the majority of my time DPSing in a Raid. I'm doing one of three things, my time is divided between DPSing, Healing, and Raising.

So I cannot put much stock in FFlogs when it comes to measuring DPS from a RDM.

If you're spending time doing that your team is really bad and they're gimping your damage, and is not an attitude to take to savage

[Silverquick]

If you're spending time doing that your team is really bad and they're gimping your damage, and is not an attitude to take to savage

Fair enough,

But also consider that you were talking about an "average" from FF Logs... so you have to account for the fact a lot of Red Mage DPS being submitted probably also includes a lot of RDMs who have to do exactly what I said.

So its just not really possible to take the DPS outputs from FFLogs with regards to Red Mage to be much different as they too would include a lot of Red Mages who split their time DPS, Healing, and Ressing.

[ReiMakoto]

Fair enough,

But also consider that you were talking about an "average" from FF Logs... so you have to account for the fact a lot of Red Mage DPS being submitted probably also includes a lot of RDMs who have to do exactly what I said.

So its just not really possible to take the DPS outputs from FFLogs with regards to Red Mage to be much different as they too would include a lot of Red Mages who split their time DPS, Healing, and Ressing.

Even at the top end not the average red mage is behind

[Silverquick]

Even at the top end not the average red mage is behind

What you would have to do to get an accurate average of RDMs DPS would be to remove all samples of RDMs who use a heal or Res...

Then take the average of those specifically to get an accurate DPS number from RDM.

And the pool is a little too small for that.

[Kabooa]

What you would have to do to get an accurate average of RDMs DPS would be to remove all samples of RDMs who use a heal or Res...

Then take the average of those specifically to get an accurate DPS number from RDM.

And the pool is a little too small for that.

Which is what you expect from 95-99th percentile. The Red mages who don't have to do that.

[Lambdafish]

What you would have to do to get an accurate average of RDMs DPS would be to remove all samples of RDMs who use a heal or Res...

Then take the average of those specifically to get an accurate DPS number from RDM.

And the pool is a little too small for that.

If you are healing and rezzing as a RDM, you aren't even going to get a blue parse, let alone top parse, or even average. The pool is pretty big at 3000 parses over the past two weeks, which if you think that's too small, then it would actually lean away from your argument as those who would be healing and rezzing probably aren't using FFlogs.

The content is old, people have been farming it for months, people aren't dying to an extent that a RDM needs to help.

[Silverquick]

If you are healing and rezzing as a RDM, you aren't even going to get a blue parse, let alone top parse, or even average. The pool is pretty big at 3000 parses over the past two weeks, which if you think that's too small, then it would actually lean away from your argument as those who would be healing and rezzing probably aren't using FFlogs.

The content is old, people have been farming it for months, people aren't dying to an extent that a RDM needs to help.

That's actually not really true,

We are talking a very miniscule difference in damage here... that means one or two cures/verraise is going to drop your damage by about that percentage, its that small.

So you would have to go through all those logs, remove any that used a vercure or verrraise, and take ONLY those that did pure DPS as an average.

So of your average of 3000 parces... how many are after the buffs of 5.1? Then how many of those never used a Vercure or Verraise? Its going to be a very small pool that's left.

[ReiMakoto]

That's actually not really true,

We are talking a very miniscule difference in damage here... that means one or two cures/verraise is going to drop your damage by about that percentage, its that small.

So you would have to go through all those logs, remove any that used a vercure or verrraise, and take ONLY those that did pure DPS as an average.

So of your average of 3000 parces... how many are after the buffs of 5.1? Then how many of those never used a Vercure or Verraise? Its going to be a very small pool that's left.

So just from flicking around void walker parses, so very anecdotal, I've not currently seen anything above a blue parse that has a single use of vercure or veraise, and of the blue logs I did find, there were very very few who used ver-cure. The crux of the argument is pretty easy to understand though, there is just very little utility to be actually gained through using these skills in a raid setting. Vercure is used to proc dualcast in downtime, but using it for its actual heal is so weak that youve got to wonder what your healers are doing, and wether or not casting it actually saved you. As for Veraise, its the lowest priority res in the party due to potency loss, if you healers or even a summoner if for some reason youre double caster has swiftcast up, its better for them to cast the res and not you because of total potency loss on rdm using a raise is way hgher than the others. As such, these skills see little to no use in optimised play, meaning they when looking at rdms damage output you can see they are very lackluster in comparison, and will only be more lackluster if using said utility

[Rilifane]

That's actually not really true,

We are talking a very miniscule difference in damage here... that means one or two cures/verraise is going to drop your damage by about that percentage, its that small.

So you would have to go through all those logs, remove any that used a vercure or verrraise, and take ONLY those that did pure DPS as an average.

So of your average of 3000 parces... how many are after the buffs of 5.1? Then how many of those never used a Vercure or Verraise? Its going to be a very small pool that's left.

You rarely raise as a RDM unless shit hits the fan.
If a healer is down and heavy damage is right around the corner OR if multiple people died, no heal lb3 possible, but it's not bad enough to give the wipe order, the SMN/ RDM raises. In all other cases it's healer duty. So even average kill parses where Verraise shows up are very, very rare. Whenever I'm on healer I strongly advice the RDM/ SMN against raising unless it's one of the sitations described above. I can manage my resources just fine to handle a couple of death, it's part of the job as a healer.
And Vercure is great for proccing dualcast but beyond that it's too weak in kill runs, even in average groups, to make it worth the dps loss.

Progress is a different thing.
I easily cast around ~100 Verraise during an evening full of Titan prog and sometimes spent time healing simply for safety reason. About half the time it wasn't neccessary and the person would have survived without additional spot-healing but the other half it was definitely neccessary after fails killed a several people and the healers struggled to recover from them. It's completely fine to play it safe during prog, seeing more of a fight is top priority. It's safer to let the RDM ress and safe healer resources because if I'm oom it's not a big deal. But if the healers are too drained to heal the next aoe, the try is over.
But outside prog both spells see little use.
If you spent a considerable amount of time spot-healing with Vercure or raising, chances are you are bit too jittery and intervene too quickly when the healers could (and likely would) have handled it just fine on their own. It's more for the peace of one's own mind then actually neccessary.

[Neela]

We are talking a very miniscule difference in damage here... that means one or two cures/verraise is going to drop your damage by about that percentage, its that small.

small percentage?... do u know how parses work?... if you want to play on "high level" there is absolut no time for heal/res on your abc-stigma. small percentage... those small percentage decide if you play over 75%+ (which is still just avg player level...) or not.... curious why you still fight hard fact data – maybe u should get familiar with how the data (not only for RDM but for the basic dmg formula) work before talking about it... : /