How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[MerlinCross]

The problem with this argument is that "surviving" is more or less pressing one or 2 buttons every couple of minutes. There's no real way to survive better beyond using appropriate CDs at the time required. Once you have that figured out all that's really left is optimizing damage, since tanks in this game are, in fact, designed to be more than mere meat shields or threat bots.

Then ask them to change it but DPS tanks won't ask for that. Or if they do get it, it won't matter. There's no amount of mechanics that can be put into place that won't be solved. More hard hits and tank busters; oh here's the new CD rotation and Healers do it this way, make sure your DPS is good. Movement gets solved to move the boss as little as possible to keep up times(Or reduced in scope cause the Melee DPS start complaining as well). The moment the fight is solved it's back to "Well tanks need more damage." There's going to be no pleasing you people so just ax the classes already.

You know how many tanks would stop playing that role than regardless about rewards for being a tank to keep populations of them healthy? Like we would lose at least 85% if not more of tanks with that kind of attitude.
How about we make DPS have only two buttons to do their jobs with then?
>_>
Edit: Forgot to mention how insufferable playing as a tank would be just trying to do MSQ too.

Having lived through the Heavensward "DPS WAR" meta; yeah sure I'll take it. About half the tank population back then were just glorified DPS, or DPS that couldn't actually hack it as DPS and wanted an easy job in Tanks. Regardless of the different responsibilities that fell on them. "Oh but that content doesn't matter" yeah bite me, give me back my time wasted on tanks thinking they were Damage dealers and ate busters/attacks they should have and then we'll say it 'doesn't matter'. I nearly hung up healing during that.

Also do you know how many raiders would probably love to have a 2 button DPS job? "It's rotation is so easy, it's able to keep up with MNK and BLK or at least be in the ball park. We don't need to worry about replacing DNC or BRD. It's a great class...., and it's melee, skip." Yeah, no I think a 2 button DPS would be very welcome in the raid community. Fun? What's that, we need numbers cause that's all that matters.

Tanks need to focus on surviving, hmm?
sounds more like "healers need to focus of keeping tanks (and everyone else and themselves) alive.
or in other words you have no idea what you're talking about.

Tanks should focus on using their CDs to lessen damage and positioning the boss.

Problem is both of those are 'solved' and now people just thirst for damage and blame healers.

[Shurrikhan]

Then ask them to change it but DPS tanks won't ask for that. Or if they do get it, it won't matter. There's no amount of mechanics that can be put into place that won't be solved. More hard hits and tank busters; oh here's the new CD rotation and Healers do it this way, make sure your DPS is good. Movement gets solved to move the boss as little as possible to keep up times(Or reduced in scope cause the Melee DPS start complaining as well). The moment the fight is solved it's back to "Well tanks need more damage." There's going to be no pleasing you people so just ax the classes already.

Gameplay being currently underwhelming = any and all iterations of gameplay will be underwhelming = just remove all jobs?

You do realize how obtuse you're being?

That all gameplay is simply a process of optimization, after which you have nothing left to improve upon, does not make all gameplay the same. The height of that hurdle matters, too, not just people will eventually manage it.

[MerlinCross]

Gameplay being currently underwhelming = any and all iterations of gameplay will be underwhelming = just remove all jobs?

You do realize how obtuse you're being?

That all gameplay is simply a process of optimization, after which you have nothing left to improve upon, does not make all gameplay the same. The height of that hurdle matters, too, not just people will eventually manage it.

The only optimization that people seem to care about is damage. Been told that again and again in this very thread. And who cares about “content that doesn’t matter” the game is “balanced” around raids and raiders right? Now this is in part due to how the game is designed, damage being the only viable that has any meaning(what you can’t follow a guide that calls out CDs for you and stay calm?)but I’m convinced there’s no amount of mechanics(Fight, job, or role)that won’t lead to people going “more damage?” without going off the deep end into annoyance or just insane demands on said tanks. And I’d still give people a few months before figuring it out anyway.

People want more damage across the board. Tanks don’t do enough, healers will never do enough from what I see people saying every expansion(with some exceptions), and even DPS cry that they aren’t MNK or BLM.

Easiest way to fix this demand is to ax the roles, make them all damage focus with little changes between them. Myself, I would find that more than likely boring but hey, the game isn’t balanced around me so how dare I question what is fun.

Can’t complain about tank damage if there’s no tanks. Kill roles and end it. But then We’d just get people complaining that their favorite job is still lowest on the chart. Ah well, can’t please everybody.

[BarretOblivion]

The only optimization that people seem to care about is damage. Been told that again and again in this very thread. And who cares about “content that doesn’t matter” the game is “balanced” around raids and raiders right? Now this is in part due to how the game is designed, damage being the only viable that has any meaning(what you can’t follow a guide that calls out CDs for you and stay calm?)but I’m convinced there’s no amount of mechanics(Fight, job, or role)that won’t lead to people going “more damage?” without going off the deep end into annoyance or just insane demands on said tanks. And I’d still give people a few months before figuring it out anyway.

People want more damage across the board. Tanks don’t do enough, healers will never do enough from what I see people saying every expansion(with some exceptions), and even DPS cry that they aren’t MNK or BLM.

Easiest way to fix this demand is to ax the roles, make them all damage focus with little changes between them. Myself, I would find that more than likely boring but hey, the game isn’t balanced around me so how dare I question what is fun.

Can’t complain about tank damage if there’s no tanks. Kill roles and end it. But then We’d just get people complaining that their favorite job is still lowest on the chart. Ah well, can’t please everybody.

Healers aren't complaining about thier damage right now, they are complaining about having only two buttons for a 'damage rotation' when they don't need to heal with.
Tanks are complaining because we fell behind further the DPS that are already getting buffs in general for all of the lower damaging classes which widens the gap between the jobs ontop of making MSQ and other content tougher/longer to do than a DPS. Hey, just be a dps if you are going to do MSQ... than why am I playing a tank in end game?

I'll tell you what though, most of the time I die as a tank is because you healers don't keep an eye on my HP when a TB is coming out and even with X cooldowns that I can afford to use you think "oh gee he has 50% hp he's fine" then get suprised when the tank dies.

Finally, why are you asking for FFXIV to become a different game entirely now? You know that is not going to happen at all. The foundation was decided to be the DPS, Tank, Healer pyramid, if you don't like it go play an MMO that doesn't do that then. It's not the point of tanks just wanting more damge because more damage, its also "Hey, our raid contribution has dropped off since SB, can we have it back to a degree we feel impactful for our gameplay/optimization?" because in the grand scheme of things as long as I don't die, my optimization of my job/role feels completely irrelevant as a cog in the machine that is my raid group, especially when I am the OT.

[MerlinCross]

Healers aren't complaining about thier damage right now, they are complaining about having only two buttons for a 'damage rotation' when they don't need to heal with.
Tanks are complaining because we fell behind further the DPS that are already getting buffs in general for all of the lower damaging classes which widens the gap between the jobs ontop of making MSQ and other content tougher/longer to do than a DPS. Hey, just be a dps if you are going to do MSQ... than why am I playing a tank in end game?

I'll tell you what though, most of the time I die as a tank is because you healers don't keep an eye on my HP when a TB is coming out and even with X cooldowns that I can afford to use you think "oh gee he has 50% hp he's fine" then get suprised when the tank dies.

Finally, why are you asking for FFXIV to become a different game entirely now? You know that is not going to happen at all. The foundation was decided to be the DPS, Tank, Healer pyramid, if you don't like it go play an MMO that doesn't do that then. It's not the point of tanks just wanting more damge because more damage, its also "Hey, our raid contribution has dropped off since SB, can we have it back to a degree we feel impactful for our gameplay/optimization?" because in the grand scheme of things as long as I don't die, my optimization of my job/role feels completely irrelevant as a cog in the machine that is my raid group, especially when I am the OT.

You missed it. Healers did complain at the start as "Oh no we aren't doing as much as WHM this expansion, woe as us". Then they moved on to "oh the rotation" later.

I don't want FF14 to become a different game. I like what we have but the push for "Only damage matters" is annoying. If the mantra is "It's the only thing that matters" then why not change the game to focus on that?

You want more raid contribution, but the only contribution you will accept is more DPS. More damage incoming? Healers get good. More movement mechanics? Guides will be put up on how to do it and squeeze extra damage out or cheesed. Any mechanic that dares disrupt DPS? Complained about till nerfed. There is no contribution that won't lead back to "We need more damage because it's the only thing that matters".

I like the foundation of DPS, Tank, Healer trinity. I just wish we got more TANK stuff than Blue DPS. But no matter what TANK stuff comes out, it's going to be solved and then the "Oh we don't deal enough damage" topics come out. But if Damage is the only thing to care and optimize about, with topic after topic about it; well you could have fooled me. I thought this was a different game so might as well change it to be the raiders want.

I'd leave but hey again, I'm not a high end raider so what do I know about fun?

SE did this with healers, were they happy?

Oh no they aren't happy at all.

But then again, most those complaining aren't raiders are they so what does it matter? They are effective and 'balanced' now around the end game which is the only content that matters.

What it's boring on the climb up? Too bad that doesn't matter. Get to raids and have fun. I mean I find several classes unfun but hey they are breaking damage limits and all other jobs should feel bad for not being them.

How the community reacts to something and how the raid community reacts to something are two different things. And the raid community loves to remind us that only their content matters.

[Shurrikhan]

You missed it. Healers did complain at the start as "Oh no we aren't doing as much as WHM this expansion, woe as us".

Wait, wait, wait... Your big "gotcha!" here is that a role complained about imbalance within its role (WHM outperforming SCH and AST despite having the lowest attention requirements, and least dependence on ability mapping or party coordination) before complaining about their shared limited offensive toolkit?

You realize this has been true of every role in every expansion, especially in the weeks leading up to Savage?

During those first few weeks, imbalances are always overemphasized because people still have the time to swap to a completely different job if need be. Once they are stuck with their choice for Savage, or have already unlocked all choices they'd even consider, then the emphasis switches to gameplay because there's no chance of wasting one's breath arguing for something that might not matter to that player. That isn't a issue point out that 'Healers only care about their on-screen damage numbers'; it's simply a matter flagging the more immediate issues to be dealt with immediately, and then dealing with the less immediate when each job at least has a good a shot at balance as it's going to get for the foreseeable future.

[BarretOblivion]

You missed it. Healers did complain at the start as "Oh no we aren't doing as much as WHM this expansion, woe as us". Then they moved on to "oh the rotation" later.

...

Healers aren't complaining about thier damage right now

It really helps if you don't miss important words in sentances and try to strawman my argument. My point had nothing to do with at the beginning of the expansion.

[MerlinCross]

Wait, wait, wait... Your big "gotcha!" here is that a role complained about imbalance within its role (WHM outperforming SCH and AST despite having the lowest attention requirements, and least dependence on ability mapping or party coordination) before complaining about their shared limited offensive toolkit?

You realize this has been true of every role in every expansion, especially in the weeks leading up to Savage?

During those first few weeks, imbalances are always overemphasized because people still have the time to swap to a completely different job if need be. Once they are stuck with their choice for Savage, or have already unlocked all choices they'd even consider, then the emphasis switches to gameplay because there's no chance of wasting one's breath arguing for something that might not matter to that player. That isn't a issue point out that 'Healers only care about their on-screen damage numbers'; it's simply a matter flagging the more immediate issues to be dealt with immediately, and then dealing with the less immediate when each job at least has a good a shot at balance as it's going to get for the foreseeable future.

If you think that's a 'gotcha', that says more about you than me.

It shouldn't take till Savage for players to figure out "Oh no look how limited our damage toolkit is" but they were all very VERY quick to point out how far behind the damage curve they were on WHM. All the complaints and the memes and the posts and the jokes, all about the Blood for the Blood Lily; when I would have figured they would just as easily see and complain about what they lacked. No, they like most of you cared only about being behind on the onscreen damage numbers more than anything about their class. "Someone else is doing more damage than us, woe oh woe".

Is it a gotcha? I dunno but I would expect top tier players to understand that stuff was going to get changed and not spend so much time on BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD LILY as they did. Odd they cared about the damage than their healing first and foremost.

...

It really helps if you don't miss important words in sentances and try to strawman my argument. My point had nothing to do with at the beginning of the expansion.

Doesn't it? What did it take for people to stop complaining about WHM and actually start more on how boring the rotation was. Oh right, balance patches. I question how much complaints we'd have from people if the damage was raised enough higher, just have to get the number right and then we'll get more posts about "Healers shouldn't do this much damage" or "AST is broken again" rather than how boring it is. What the community complains about changes with time and usually based around damage, not fun. Example, I keep seeing MNK after MNK topics about how busted they are damage wise but I rarely hear people talk about how fun the class is to actually play.

Besides, they aren't designed to be 'fun' they're designed to be 'balanced for end game' as the thread has told me, several times. If the masses find it boring, then according to that line of thinking, they are doing something wrong. Perhaps the answer is to make the damage higher?

Whatever, I've dropped healing this expansion cause I find the healing aspect to be so bleh, never mind anything relating to damage.

I'm still convinced you can make a boring or unfun class and the community will still flock to it if the Damage numbers are just right. Get a Tank that does BRD level damage and auto procs 30% damage reduction just in time for the tank buster. Sure it has 2 buttons but you can't tell me the community wouldn't love that on the raid team.

Look, I just want to be graded on something besides damage. Anything besides the consistent push for "Damage damage damage". But I'm convinced the community won't let that happen regardless of what the devs try to put in. Anything that doesn't let us push damage is either cheesed or mastered/geared out or complained.

So just change the game to reflect this demand and expectation for Damage. I'd leave, but I would expect people in this thread and elsewhere on the forums would find it to be a better game. At the very least axing the OT seems would go a long way to pleasing this DPS only set up we have.

[Billythepancake]

Oh no they aren't happy at all.

But then again, most those complaining aren't raiders are they so what does it matter? They are effective and 'balanced' now around the end game which is the only content that matters.

What it's boring on the climb up? Too bad that doesn't matter. Get to raids and have fun. I mean I find several classes unfun but hey they are breaking damage limits and all other jobs should feel bad for not being them.

How the community reacts to something and how the raid community reacts to something are two different things. And the raid community loves to remind us that only their content matters.

I'm an end game raider healer main, and I absolutely hate the current healer designs. Same with my healing partner. We play healers because we're good at it, and because we like the responsibility of healing, but we're over here, outside of ultimate content, bored out of our minds because we have nothing to do. Plenty have their reasons for healing in end game content, and a lot of them either dislike the changes, or vastly prefer the older designs but just roll with it.

Not to take away from the conversation here though, this isn't about healers, just wanted to say that.