The coppied Factory vs SHB canon

[Lord_Umbra]

Nah, it could easily be open air, and still remain undiscovered, even with Airships being common. The location is in the mountains, and the Airship technology on the First may simply not have the ability to achieve sufficient altitude to explore them.

There's sufficient grounds for suspension of disbelief either way you choose to look at it. Personally, I think "open air, but in an a valley inaccessible to the First's technology" is the much more likely explanation, as the alternative requires you to ALSO try to figure out how they're illuminating it all to the point where healthy trees can grow, not to mention how and why trees wound up planted in this underground complex.


Aw, man, I was gonna post something sarcastic to poke fun at the "the WoL is canonically solo!" crowd, but there's no point now!

Anyway, among the WoL's myriad other talents, she/he's a talented leader, able to network an extensive network of fellow adventurers to call upon for anything too difficult to handle alone (probably does all this networking while you're logged off). Linkpearls and devices similar to the Aetheryte Pendulum allow them to come to your side at a moment's notice.

Of course, there's no firm canon for this, either, but it makes a heckuva lot more sense than imagining a WHM Warrior of Light drubbing Nidhogg to death with a stick!

Well if we go true canon WoL has never been a WHM, the Heavensward WoL was Dragoon & ShB WoL is currently a Dark Knight. Though Solo WoL makes more sense to me than waiting for 23 people who can't teleport like us to travel all that distance especially in time a needed quickness, just imagining for all content WoL setting up camp outside waiting for these friends to arrive, especially with that 1 year time bubble.

[Alleo]

Says who? Why are you saying it like it's fact.

WoL vs Zenos has been explained with gameplay. As in he was lv70, we were not. It was that simple.

1. Lore book states that we only fight certain fights with adventurers and most of the others alone.
2. It makes no sense and it is a MMO so of course you will have differences between gameplay and lore. Or would you say that we go in dungeons again and again too?

We have not made ingame contact to that many adventurers on the first and as we saw with steps of faith, not every adventurers like to do something dangerous. We also went in there and did not know that we would have to fight our way through and were kinda there in secret until the end. So how were those 23 other people here?

How did we get the people to fight against Thordan if we only travel to Azys LLa the first time (a completely unknown zone) and are only there with the scions? Other people cant teleport there. Also how did they escape? We are the only ones on Middys back and only managed to make it out thanks to him?

Why is nobody of those 23 other people (since we also need at least that amount on the source too) that can keep up with us not ever mentioned in the story itself? Why are we the only one getting rewards and thanks? Were are we finding all those echo users that are at our strenght but are somehow not part of the scions?

Why would someone like Zenos only see us as "friend" even though we first only managed to beat him up with three other people and then needed another four more (who also came out of thin air) to beat him and Shinryu combined.

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@LineageRazor: Yeah lets poke fun at those that just feel that a lot of fights would not make sense with other people and seeing how its even like that in the lore book itself and other languages like the german one often dont have that tongue in cheek mentioning of adventurers just fishing nearby and other stuff..

A WHM also has DPS attacks and I doubt that the fights would even happen like they do ingame. Or how is in your opinion an WHM suddenly able to defeat monsters like Ranjit? How was she able to defeat Innocence, a fight which was 100% done solo because in canon we go into this with only the scions and they are staying back.

[Jennah]

I hope the game eventually states that they're 23 androids helping you.
Probably just adventurers from the Crystarium or Eulmore though.

[Jandor]

1. Lore book states that we only fight certain fights with adventurers and most of the others alone.

Can you quote the relevant passage for us? Don't have access to the lore book, curious what it says.

[Berethos]

Nah, it could easily be open air, and still remain undiscovered, even with Airships being common.

There's also how the next "open air" area after the first (which would look just like what it is to those from the air - dilapidated old metal ruins likely not worth venturing into) is in a place called the Deep Stratum, which strongly suggests that we've gone pretty far down (which also jives with what we do in the raid, first going down those pipes and then jumping down again after Hobbes to reach more of the factory). Even if there is open air above us, you can't see it, and anything looking down into that area would just see a white mist/dust.

[Alleo]

Can you quote the relevant passage for us? Don't have access to the lore book, curious what it says.

Sure (only have the one for the first lore book)

Three with adventurers:

Rhitahtyn sas Arvina: "The adventurer then led a small unit into the innermost sector [...]"

Assault on Castrum Meridianum: "[...] the selfsame adventurer who slew Rhitahtyn sas Arvina once more took charge of an elite adventurer unit. They stole past the defenses of Castrum Meridianum [...]. Yet again the adventurer and his allies emerged triumpahnt.

Curiously at Ultima only the adventurer was mentioned: "Yet by the grace of Mother Hydealyns blessing the adventruer was spared death."

Interesting note: The lore book states that only our Wol survived the battle of carteneau while the rest perished.

Steps of faith: "[...] suggested instead that the scions make every effort to assemble a contingent of elite adventurers - a volunteer force under the leadership of the Warrior of Light."

Without others:

Ifrit: "However by the power of the echo, that holy gift bestowed by Mother Hydealyn herself, the adventurer proved immune to Ifrits tempering [...]. Flying into a rage Ifrit attempted to slaughter the adventurer, only to find himself outmatched."

"With the adventurers victory over the beastman god [...]...Word quickly spread of the valiant hero - the eikon slayer - spurring others to seek to enlist his aid and that of the scions.

Titan: " And so, in a moment that shall forever be enshrined in the annals of Eorzean history, the adventurer slew the Lord of Crags [...]"

Garuda: "Admidst the whirling winds, the adventurer succeded in striking down the Lady of the Vortex, only to see her rise once more [...]. "

Mog: "At the behest of the Order of the Twin Adder, the warrior of the Light journeyed to the Twelveswood, and with the cooperation of the moogles, he sought out and confronted the Mogglesguard and their liege lord [...]. Though hard-pressed the adventurer won the day [...]"

Leviathan: "[...] the Triumph, towed the Whorleater in the sea, along with the Warrior of Light, to confront the fell primal. And so it was that folliowing a titantic struggle on the high seas, he succeeded in vanquishing Leviathian [...]"

Ramuh: "[...] elected to suspend judgment until the Warrior of Light himself underwent a trial by combat. Thus was he forced to strike down Ramuh and in so doing earn the right to champion the cause of peace in the Black Shroud."

Shiva: "The resurrected saint of eld lashed out with a righteous fury, pushing the Warrior of Light to his mortal limits..yet the battle ended as it had begun, with the young maiden kneeling in the snow, cursing his ignorance [...]"

Nabriales: "[...] he escaped with both Minfilia and the relic she held and the Warrior of Light followed. In that otherwordly void the adventurer defeated his Ascian foe and rescued Minfilia, returning all three to the Rising stones."

Bismark: "From this selfsame island the Warrior of Light then launched his offensive against Bismarck and like so many before the Lord of Mists soon fell to his might."

Research Facility: "While Alphinaud, Ysthola and Estinien kept the forces of the VIth Legion occupied, the Warrior of Light procceeded toward the "ARF" alone. [...] There the Warrior of Light fought and defeated Regula van Hydrus once more, and delved deeper into the heart of the floating isle and towards his quarry."

Lahabrea and Igeyorhm: "In a bid to eliminate the adventurer, the Ascians attacked as one, but with Hydealyns blessing restored, they were no match for him."

Thordan: "How the Warrior of Light managed to overcome such impossible odds taht day, none can say. History only states that in the end, he prevailed, and was the first man in Isghardian history to arrive in the city upon dragonback"

Trials of Hraesvelgr: "Thus convinced, Hraesvelgr declarred that he would put the Warrior of Light and his compansions to the test. Within the ruins where Ratatoskr once dwelled, the three weathered the trials of the great wyrm [...]

Nidhogg: "With it, the Warrior of Light became Ishgards best and last hope of slaying the rampaging Nidhogg. The great wyrms shade was a fearsome foe, consumed by a thousand years of vengeance. However, the Warrior of Light too was a force to be reckoned with, infused with the might of Hraesvelgr and filled with an otherwordly determination. Thus empowered, he subduesd Nidhoggs shade and restored Estiniens to his original form."

_________

So they made it very clear in the lore book when a unit of adventurers were with us (the last one being steps of faith). This for me means that at least those that wrote the lore book wanted to make sure to point out that we did have help (mostly against Garlemald) but did the primals alone. If its canon that we did have help everywhere then why not write it down in the lore book itself, especially since they had no problem with writing it down when it matters. This for me is the evidence that we did most of it alone (which also makes much more sense for a lot of examples ingame too)

I am not sure how the second lore book is with that (thus the stormblood expansion) and I also could not find hints towards 24 man raids. If those are described in lore books with more people then I have to accept that in some cases even there we suddenly get a bunch of adventurers with us.

In the end ARR and HW was done mostly solo.

[Jandor]

So they made it very clear in the lore book when a unit of adventurers were with us (the last one being steps of faith). This for me means that at least those that wrote the lore book wanted to make sure to point out that we did have help (mostly against Garlemald) but did the primals alone. If its canon that we did have help everywhere then why not write it down in the lore book itself, especially since they had no problem with writing it down when it matters. This for me is the evidence that we did most of it alone (which also makes much more sense for a lot of examples ingame too)

I am not sure how the second lore book is with that (thus the stormblood expansion) and I also could not find hints towards 24 man raids. If those are described in lore books with more people then I have to accept that in some cases even there we suddenly get a bunch of adventurers with us.

In the end ARR and HW was done mostly solo.

I appreciate the reply and taking the time to write it up.

I'm not convinced that I'm wrong about being in a party being the default though. Just because adventurers are outright mentioned sometimes doesn't mean they're automatically not there when they're not mentioned, especially when it rarely outright states the opposite, that you're solo.
WoL defeated X, WoL went to face Y, WoL prepared for Z, etc. doesn't to me read as 'the WoL and the WoL alone'.

Feels to me occasionally mentioning adventurers is meant to give the impression you're a leader and then you fill in the blanks from there. Mentioning 'WoL and friends' every single time would get very repetitive, especially when 'WoL' works fine.

Also fits better for me with previous FF games, previous JRPGs and even most western RPGs and fantasy in general. The main character is typically the leader of a group, and even if said group isn't with you in a cutscene they almost always appear from around the corner or whatever when an actual fight starts.

Again, do appreciate you writing all that up. I keep meaning to buy a lorebook at some point, read a copy at a friends house a long time ago and though it was a very nice item.

[LineageRazor]

I appreciate the reply and taking the time to write it up.

I'm not convinced that I'm wrong about being in a party being the default though. Just because adventurers are outright mentioned sometimes doesn't mean they're automatically not there when they're not mentioned, especially when it rarely outright states the opposite, that you're solo.
WoL defeated X, WoL went to face Y, WoL prepared for Z, etc. doesn't to me read as 'the WoL and the WoL alone'.

Feels to me occasionally mentioning adventurers is meant to give the impression you're a leader and then you fill in the blanks from there. Mentioning 'WoL and friends' every single time would get very repetitive, especially when 'WoL' works fine.

Also fits better for me with previous FF games, previous JRPGs and even most western RPGs and fantasy in general. The main character is typically the leader of a group, and even if said group isn't with you in a cutscene they almost always appear from around the corner or whatever when an actual fight starts.

Again, do appreciate you writing all that up. I keep meaning to buy a lorebook at some point, read a copy at a friends house a long time ago and though it was a very nice item.

That was my thought, as well. Any write-up that doesn't explicitly say the WoL is solo could be interpreted either way, while the ones that explicitly say he has a group really only have one interpretation. Compare real-life records of battles - particularly really old records. It's often the case they'll say General X met Lord Y on the field of battle, and General X was victorious! This in no way implies that there were only two people on the battlefield - nor does it even imply that X and Y personally crossed swords with one another. It is understood that these leaders had other individuals under their command, and that it was their skillful leadership that brought the victory, just as much if not more so than their personal martial prowess.

[Alleo]

I appreciate the reply and taking the time to write it up.

I'm not convinced that I'm wrong about being in a party being the default though. Just because adventurers are outright mentioned sometimes doesn't mean they're automatically not there when they're not mentioned, especially when it rarely outright states the opposite, that you're solo.

So the book makes it clear to write when they have groups with them and the rest is done purely also with grammatics that talk about one person and you are still not convinced. Then nothing will convince you (which is fine btw). The book outright says that after Ifrit people started looking up to the WoL and called him eikon slayer. Why only him? Why not the rest?

And quite some of those (for example Thordan) make sure to point out how nearly impossible that victory felt for the WoL and how they afterwards were the first person ever to arrive on dragon back. So they say that it was a near miracle and afterwards state that he "alone" came back from there (which we see ingame too). Yet he had help? Not only that but the lore book even outright states that the WoL went to the ARF alone! (So did those people just came out of thin air right before the ARF? Why only three then and the other four only later with Thordan? Because if we take gameplay mechanics as canon then we also have to take as canon that most of the time these are all different people and different amounts of them. Thus we started with three randoms and later suddenly have 7 different randoms)

Where are they? Why are they disappearing all the time? Why are they only talking about unnamed unknown adventurer units in some cases but leave them completely out in fights that should matter more? Why are they not famous as the WoL? Why are they not with the scions? How would getting help make sense for a lot of these situations?

Ifrit: You and the group of soldiers are captured in the desert. Of course the game itself has to give you a way to leave that place otherwise as a DD you might be stuck in there until the queue pops. But in story? How would it make sense that they would not bind us? How would it make sense that we can truly just leave and instead of freeing everyone and running away we just leave them behind, swim through the lake (without anyone noticing it), somehow find three other adventurers nearby that are also strong enough and willing to help...go back with them through the lake..stay there without fleeing with the rest while the Amalja do not notice anything off..then in cutscene we are again the only one not tempered and Ifrit also only talks about us...if others are with us there, we really got a huge portion of fortune. Finding random adventurers who want to fight and have the echo too! At a point in the story were we had not clue that we needed that against Ifrit.

And after a long hard fight the four victors stand proud and then Thancred arrives and only cares about us..not even asks who those other three people are..at a point in the story where he barely even knows us so he kinda should not just focus on us alone. We get back with the scions, they also dont care that there are three other people with echos besides us and the people and the city states call only us the eikon slayer...man those other three randoms must be pretty pissed off. Risking their lifes against an unknown enemy for an unknown random person and at the end that person gets all the thanks and honor while nobody even remembers them being there.

I mean I could understand people forgetting the other ones with us when we are already the WoL and famous. But forgetting them right from the start when we were an unknown person? Calling us an eikon slayer but not the other three? I mean none of the people were even at the fight..so why would we be put into the spot light? For all the know we could have been laying down K.O for most of the fight while the rest has done their work.

Or we are doing it alone, get captures, are bound and thus could not run away, are brought before Ifrit who then cant turn us and we kick his firey behind! Thancred is happy that the one person he sent there from their group is still fine and people see us as a new shining hero.

I am sorry but the first one with the group does not make any sense at all.

[SannaR]

Okay so the 2nd Lore book doesn't say anything about how our fights with Susano or Lakshmi happened.

The Following are all the ones it does state the WoL soloed.
Tam-Tara Hard, Toto-Rak, Haukke, both Brayflox, Stone Vigil Hard, both Amdapor Keeps, Keeper of the Lake, Sohm Al, Xelphatol, Shisui, Temple of the Fist and Heaven on High.

The Following are all the ones it says Adventures or we know we had npcs at least enter it with us.
Both Sastash, Tam-tara, both Copperbell, both Halatali though it's a bit confusing if they're just talking about the npcs we beat up in it, both Qarn, Dzemael, Aurum Vale it's noted that each Grand Company sent out a unit, both Wanderers, Castrum Meridinum, Both Pharos, Both Lost City, Sohm Al Hard, Baelsar's Wall sorta it says the Scions, Siren Song Sea sorta as I guess we solo it after getting off the boat, Bardam's Mettle sorta as Hien and Lyse took their own path, Castrum Abania, Ala Mhigo as it says Eorzean Alliance/Resistance, Kugane Castle, Skalla it says Scions, Palace of the Dead, Eureka.

Everything else it doesn't say how we did it. There are some that at some point we meet up with a npc or are followed in a CS by npcs.
Cutter's, Stone Vigil, Praetorium, Hullbreaker, Snowcloak, Dusk Vigil, The Aery, The Vault, both Great Gubal Librar, ARF, Neverreap, both Fractal, Arboretum as hard wasn't included, Antitower, Doma Castle, Hells' Lid, Swallow's Compass.

For Kugane I had to read a side blurb about the stage we fight Yojimbo in to find out it wasn't just us followed by the Sekiseigumi.