Entitled people kick from FC harassing after??

[Yakoo]

Yakoo, don't let the gaslighting get to you. Like, legit this didn't need to come into the forums but you did fine otherwise.

Arigatou Goasaimasu~ Yes, it was only 1 time thing, since it was a very bad experience for me, I just wanted to share.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

I love the logic of "Your FC members are afraid of telling you what worries them so they had to resort to talking smack about you in a public stream"...

[SturmChurro]

You join an FC so you better abide by the rules that they set, don't join a FC out of a sense of self entitlement like the FC owes you something, when they owe you nothing. So if you get kicked from it for breaking rules then its really simple, you broke the rules so you got kicked for it. Some people can't take it that they got kicked from the FC and out of spite create drama out of it, for their wrong doings and some will play the victim and favouritism game even though the ones that are kicked did something to be kicked for.

These players were talking trash behind your back (about you), they got caught on stream (they should have been smarter), you gave them a warning, then in their PoV after said warning you arbitrarily ban them. Even if after deliberation you and other FC members collectively think kicking is the right outcome, you had already given these players a warning. This means, your warnings, or your given word, is worth nothing.

The learning experience should be given to you. Keep to your word, or think about actually deliberating with the FC before giving it.

[Saefinn]

I'll answer this as I have run an FC before and been an officer.

I would not have auto jumped to a warning right away and gathered evidence from members of my FC PRIVATELY. Not go into the FC chat. Not make it public on Discord. in tells.

We had this issue where there was an actual officer in the FC who was sexually harassing a member. The problem is, there was enough evidence but the FC leader (not me at the time) was friends with that officer being accused. When it was brought up publically, so many things were denied and faked, that the FC leader didn't believe it. But when things were talked about PRIVATELY, it came to light what was going on, and that officer stepped down and eventually left.

But yet in your own question, and the OP posting, we don't know how much time has been inbetween the warning and kick. One day? One hour? One week? Who knows? We weren't there.

Also, if you have rules, you stick to them. If you made a rule that it's three warnings then you're kicked, stick with it. But since we have no way to see the OPs rules, we don't have any knowledge how they run their FC.

And humans will always look back on situations and think "I could have done this" or "I should have done that". Well, shoulda woulda coulda won't help alas. What's done is done. That is why I suggest and try to follow my own rules of taking time to gather information and come to a conclusion, not a knee jerk reaction. That way, I have little second guessing what I did (hopefully).

The first point is already the approach that I take, and I will always try to get evidence and information from both sides and despite how much I do in this respect, I'm still capable of making the wrong decision as we all are. I also heavily encourage my members to get logs where the can, because logs are great evidence, you can get the context, exactly what was said and you can look at it without bias, though with voice, that's hard. But we'll do our best to make the right decision, but they're not always black and white.

But yes, I think if I were to fault the OP for anything is making a verdict too soon, that I agree with. But I don't think it means you're being a terrible leader for doing so, aren't a tyrant or any of those bad things people have said, but human instead.

However, the focus for criticism seems very much be on the fact they changed their decision. But if you make the wrong decision first time around, you still have to deal with it and I am curious for those who're criticising the change of decision (and who wouldn't have a problem if the original verdict was a ban) what they would do differently if they perceived something could kick off before they have the chance to intervene and stop it. Putting themselves in the shoes where they have made the wrong decision first time around.

If I found myself in a position where I had made the mistake of offering the wrong decision in the first place. If the wrong thing to do is to change my verdict and I carry a viable and strong concern that the people in question would cause a big problem when my back is turned and on my return there's the risk that I have a bigger situation to deal with that's wholly unfair on the rest of the FC. People who have done nothing worthy my respect and if anything, acted to lose any respect I might have had. What would be the right way to handle it? Bearing in mind, it's not just me and the offenders who're affected but my FC members too.

Should I accept I made my decision, it was the wrong one and deal with the fallout if and when said s***storm comes to fruition and ruin the peace despite any lenience I've offered and to the detriment to those who aren't involved?

Or should I accept I made the wrong decision, it's not ideal, but change my decision to the right one? Save the situation escalating more than it needs to.

Or should I try to patch the situation in trying to reason with them? That is, despite my current attempts ending in a display of poor attitudes on their part and lack of remorse and continue to risk a s***storm.

Or is there another option I've not considered in this hypothetical situation?

But as you rightly say, we don't know how the OP runs their FC, hence I am understanding the case in question as an isolated incident, especially as if it wasn't, I'd expect the PSA to make reference to more than 1 case. And as an isolated incident, I'd not expect it'd bring their integrity into question or necessarily reflect badly on them overall as a leader. I have a clause in my rules that clarifies I have the ability to override any decision (and only the FC leader can do this, my second in command and officers don't get that right), whilst it can be abused, people trust that I won't abuse it, I don't and if I did, it'd lead to unruliness from my integrity being in disrepute and people would start leaving.

But it is there,should situations arise where the ruling isn't enough, whether it's somebody's decision or a particular FC rule. It came into place in 2013 and I've only ever used it once, for good reason, but I won't get into details because it was a very delicate situation and I've spent this long respecting that person's privacy, I'm not gonna break it now. So I think it is something worth having, but of course, it does mean your members will have to feel confident you have the integrity to not misuse it.

[Jybril]

This whole topic has gotten ridiculous. I haven't read every single long-winded post but Jesus.
Who cares if they changed their mind last second as a FC leader?
You folks act like people can't change their mind. O_o

If people from the FC was being jerks, they could prolly be jerks to others in the FC.
You have to do whats right for yourself and the FC.
Some people are legit only eyeballing the fact that she kicked AFTER the warning.
This is so minuscule to me in my eyes because they were dare I say...Toxic.
At least the FC all came together about it and thought they shouldn't stick anymore.
After the kick, they banded together to form some mob like children.

This whole thing doesn't need to be some Ace Attorney Trial.

[AngelCheese77]

aren't you jumping into conclusions now? claiming his FC members is scared of him without any proof?do you have screenshots of his FC members saying that they are scared of him?
if what you claimed is right so without proof we cant deny his claims either,do you have any proof that the event in question is made up? that he did it to get attention?
so maybe we need to take your words with a grain of salt as well ^^.

the point is that your claim can go either way, your claim about his post being false also need to be backed up by facts and while he can't nor should provide proof of the events to us,he decided to share what happened with us all ,believe in it or not.

he could be lying and could not but if he posted this ,the fact is it can be true(which most likely is and i hardly believe he posted it for trolling) and if people want to share similar experiences and opinions we are free to do so.
the thing is this isn't court ,it doesn't need to prove his claims here unless people actually claim this isn't how it went and most of all the people he need to prove the events are the GMs not us.

I expect people to take things I say with a grain of salt as well, but now you're also not making much of an argument and just turning the words I said back on myself.

Coming to a public forum to say someone did this or that and expecting strangers to believe them ... well, yes, in my world, you need proof. You show me that it happened,and I will make my own conclusions. Because so far, all I see are people auto nodding their heads in agreement. We call this Herd Mentality.

And so far, I have been sharing my experiences, but it seems I've been villified with my first post. /shrugs Whatever.

So you think this was about getting attention?? I'll be brief No, it wasn't about attention.

Screenshots of the chat or pictures and names of players here is against TOS, if it was posted and not allowed on the forums. From what I've read.

How does that ring alarms bells?? You're only assuming the worse, the reason why they never want to say anything is because they don't want to, and its not even because of a reason. If people don't speak or want to start up a conversation, because they don't want to, then is that determined as them as being afraid?? It does not. You clearly don't know me or how my FC members are. Thank you very much.

You stated in your above post that they had a reason:

And on a Note: I always say to my FC members, "If there is a concern or if someone upsets you, then please let me know", its only until the incident happen when them bad mouthing me and only then did they decide to tell me how they felt about them and its regarding issues before the incident even occurred, why?? Because they don't want to look like the bully so they kept quiet instead. They didn't want to tell me how they felt, I had to literally ask them how they felt.

(my bolded emphasis)

Let me tell you why this is bad.

In EQ2 I had a character. At the time my mother was dying of cancer. I was inadvertently projecting my sadness into the game, but people of my guild refused to bring it up to me, only speaking to the officers. This went on for 6 MONTHS. 6 MONTHS of people talking about me behind my back, instead of talking to me in private and saying something. Know how I found out? When I became and officer myself and was privvy to the Officer forums. Reading posts on people actually hating me, wishing I was gone, and even worst stuff I can't put here.

So yes. Having guild members keep quiet on something is bad. It hurts, especially if it could have been something stopped ahead of time. From the words you wrote, it was either something that had been going on a while that others have seen, but didn't want to bring up as to not "be a bully" or just happened that one time. I don't know.

Yakoo, don't let the gaslighting get to you. Like, legit this didn't need to come into the forums but you did fine otherwise.

"Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, making them question their own memory, perception, and sanity. Using persistent denial, misdirection, contradiction, and lying, gaslighting involves attempts to destabilize the victim and delegitimize the victim's beliefs."

Please learn the definition and what the proper use of gaslighting is. All I see here is people DISCUSSING something that was made on a public forum, not going through the ProJared/Heidi debacle.

These players were talking trash behind your back (about you), they got caught on stream (they should have been smarter), you gave them a warning, then in their PoV after said warning you arbitrarily ban them. Even if after deliberation you and other FC members collectively think kicking is the right outcome, you had already given these players a warning. This means, your warnings, or your given word, is worth nothing.

The learning experience should be given to you. Keep to your word, or think about actually deliberating with the FC before giving it.

Call me old fashioned, but the bolded statment is my so true in my book.

The first point is already the approach that I take, and I will always try to get evidence and information from both sides and despite how much I do in this respect, I'm still capable of making the wrong decision as we all are. I also heavily encourage my members to get logs where the can, because logs are great evidence, you can get the context, exactly what was said and you can look at it without bias, though with voice, that's hard. But we'll do our best to make the right decision, but they're not always black and white.

But yes, I think if I were to fault the OP for anything is making a verdict too soon, that I agree with. But I don't think it means you're being a terrible leader for doing so, aren't a tyrant or any of those bad things people have said, but human instead.

Funny how people see my discussions are calling them a bad FC leader. I don't remember ever saying that. Yes, I might be against their decisions and the outcomes, but we are human. We learn and grow. And sometimes that means taking criticism.

However, the focus for criticism seems very much be on the fact they changed their decision. But if you make the wrong decision first time around, you still have to deal with it and I am curious for those who're criticising the change of decision (and who wouldn't have a problem if the original verdict was a ban) what they would do differently if they perceived something could kick off before they have the chance to intervene and stop it. Putting themselves in the shoes where they have made the wrong decision first time around.

If I found myself in a position where I had made the mistake of offering the wrong decision in the first place. If the wrong thing to do is to change my verdict and I carry a viable and strong concern that the people in question would cause a big problem when my back is turned and on my return there's the risk that I have a bigger situation to deal with that's wholly unfair on the rest of the FC. People who have done nothing worthy my respect and if anything, acted to lose any respect I might have had. What would be the right way to handle it? Bearing in mind, it's not just me and the offenders who're affected but my FC members too.

Mistakes are made and you learn. I get that. But I guess people aren't seeing what I'm seeing in this discussion.

I work with facts and stuff in front of me. But the story the OP gave just doesn't sit right. I guess, overall, what bothers me is the given warning, then when all seemed cool as if the people were given a second chance ... the choice then was made later to kick them. Maybe I'm a soft-hearted b**ch who has to talk with people and explain things. I dunno. /shrug

Bad eggs in an FC shouldn't be there. I agree. Been there done that. Until that small piece of info about the OP's FC rules are known to me, I think I'll always have that small doubt in my mind.

Overall I think I have given my side on things, so this will be my last post on this. Don't think I can give anything else as not wanting to repeat myself.

[xJimmehx]

No they aren't.

Think of it this way.

You are at your job...snip snip snip...

This. Personally I would have kicked them without a second thought the first time around, but if I had decided it to be a warning I would have left it a warning. Then the next time they did something bad immediate dismissal for a second offense.

It IS bad form. As a guild leader myself(since arr), if i had done something like this. It 'could' be thrown up in my face. My fc members would think they have the right to tell me how to run my fc and anytime you backpedal on your word, its expected anytime somebody else gets in trouble. "buts its only fair" or "you changed things for so-and-so, why not me?"

Canadane Is just offering you genuine advice and you are misinterpreting things. Could be bad wording or not enough coffee. In a nutshell, this is risky and sloppy. Those guys were jerks and as I said earlier, I would have kicked them immediately. Handling it the way you did, could possibly have made them harrass your fc even more than it would have if you had simply kicked them in the first place or left it at a warning and kicked the second time around.

Nobody is saying a kick is too harsh. Those guys are clearly in the wrong. It was intended to be more like "be careful how manage things cause its risky and could backfire that way." In my opinion as well as from my own personal experiences(in game and out) I believe a guild leader should strive to always follow their own word and never change the rules to suit themselves. If you are going to issue a punishment, do so after thinking good and hard on it first and follow through with it later. This is the best, quickest way to gain support and respect from your fc members and to insure that they fear the consequences of breaking the rules. The others probably believe something similar and were intending to help you? That how i perceived it.

I am not trying to sound arrogant nor do I think I am better than anyone. I just truly believe what i said to be helpful to you. I wish you the best and I apologize if it somehow seems otherwise.

EDIT: I want to add that this is meant to help make the FC run smoother, but its also to cover FC leads butt. Im not trying to be toxic. Im trying to protect the OP from backlash and disorder.

Also, my co-lead shouts recruitments and we almost never have drama at all of any kind. I insta kick people who start drama, are disrespectful, rude or otherwise do something to intentionally bother another player and make no exceptions for anyone. Fortunately I havent had to kick many people. The are bad types of people in everything. You will never be free of it. Im sorry if you guys had bad experiences. I also disagree with the decision to label all shouters as bad. It would have been better if you had simply said "be careful when accepting shouters recruits" in my opinion.

[Yakoo]

(my bolded emphasis)

Let me tell you why this is bad.

In EQ2 I had a character. At the time my mother was dying of cancer. I was inadvertently projecting my sadness into the game, but people of my guild refused to bring it up to me, only speaking to the officers. This went on for 6 MONTHS. 6 MONTHS of people talking about me behind my back, instead of talking to me in private and saying something. Know how I found out? When I became and officer myself and was privvy to the Officer forums. Reading posts on people actually hating me, wishing I was gone, and even worst stuff I can't put here.

So yes. Having guild members keep quiet on something is bad. It hurts, especially if it could have been something stopped ahead of time. From the words you wrote, it was either something that had been going on a while that others have seen, but didn't want to bring up as to not "be a bully" or just happened that one time. I don't know.

Let me re-clarify, I'm not talking about the members who talked trash behind my back. I'm talking about the members who were feeling uncomfortable with them. This is only when they decide to tell me how they felt about the members, they did not want to talk about. And they are not anything like what you assume.

And sometimes, people don't want to say anything if they don't want to about member, that they are uncomfortable with, they just keep quiet and let it be. When only until something has happened with the specified members that they have a bad vibe about, only then will they want to say something, when asked about.

I'm sorry that your mother was dying of cancer, I also had a cousin who had cancer and died of it, but they were at a very young age. I know how you feel when people talk bad things behind your back, I would also be enraged too, anyone would. Which is why I made the decision I had to make, even if it was changed from a warning to a kick.

[Sated]

Please learn the definition and what the proper use of gaslighting is. All I see here is people DISCUSSING something that was made on a public forum, not going through the ProJared/Heidi debacle.

Is attempting to get them to doubt their leadership and question if they were the catalyst for this entire thing not gaslighting? It was an abrupt change of topic and tactic, and it seemed to be what you were doing with that post, whether that was your intent or not. We don't have enough info to make accusations like that and it doesn't seem like a useful avenue to pursue given the circumstances.

But anyway, I don't see much meaningful discussion left to be had here, it mostly seems like there's just a fundamental difference between the sort of social environments people prefer and are comfortable with which is going to vary wildly based on peoples' past experiences.

[CrimsonGunner]

I expect people to take things I say with a grain of salt as well, but now you're also not making much of an argument and just turning the words I said back on myself.

that was kinda my point to turn your own words against you and to make you reflect on it.
your words and points weren't exactly on the logic end but rather on the insulting end which even if it was your purpose it was the wrong way to make your point or making people understand it at least.

i already had a conversation about the points you said during your first post with Ferwyn but the problem was his first explanation which painted an over exaggerated picture of his views when that his actual point really was ,he(the OP) didn't acted right when after he warned them and closed the case , he kicked them from the FC , he either needed to kicked them right then or stayed with the warning until another time they do something else bad.
which again i said is a legit point to make but wasn't properly explained right and while we see things differently it is still a point to consider.

also while you dont agree with us that saying "OMG U Died U SUxxORz" is not grounds for dismissal or being called toxic ,it could have been phrased and even explained better especially since you start the post saying "Goodness. People complain about everything and anything in a game." which is how troll posts usually starts and making it clear your attacking and insulting in it. so that post kinda painted you a villain even if you didn't mean it like that.