Entitled people kick from FC harassing after??

[Saefinn]

And to add to Kalin above. Coming from a leader standpoint. I think that's something important to remember, a lot of the time people start groups because they want to play with their friends and have a good time and want to organise fun stuff to do with something they all enjoy doing and make friends too. They're not doing it as something especially serious or professional. Though of course, each FC is different, because some are just there for serious content progression and no-BS. But I think for many, it can be about having fun with people.

If somebody screws with that, your position as a leader might be "they screwed up, we deal with it appropriately" but what happens when somebody, let's say somebody who contributes a lot found they're just really uncomfortable with them? Because of their attitude/behaviour and it sucks the fun out of doing stuff with them? You have to make a decision on it.

As a leader do you:
a) take the line: "I already dealt with it. This is the end of it. No more action required."?
b) kick the offender?
c) try to work things out?

Option a) could ultimately leave to the non-offender leaving, if the offender was genuinely an a-hole, do you really want to make the choice between somebody who is being an a-hole to somebody who actively makes positive contributions?
Option b) will seem unfair and may ultimately be so, but you're there to have fun, they were the a-hole and if people are going to be a-holes, they must also be prepared to accept the consequences for it. They're not entitled to being there. It's something you voluntarily run for fun, you're not an organisation, you're not a business and you may not necessarily owe them anything.
Option c) would ask more from you than is your duty, but I think for many people is the instinct if caught in the middle. This is what I normally do, and there is still risk of the outcomes of option a and of option b and even both of them at the same time. I have encountered each and it's not fun when things get worse not better as a result. But if it works out, then things get sorted and all is hunky dory

I think as a leader, you kinda gotten play it by ear a bit. But inevitably, you'll make bad judgment calls.

[KalinOrthos]

Agreed with most of the above, Saefinn. I'd like to add that there are rarely ever objectively good decisions one can choose in a situation, just mostly objectively bad ones. In the case of Yakoo, the objectively bad decision would have been to let the people who had been bad mouthing both the FC and its members to remain in the company without any further action. They made it abundantly clear they had absolutely no respect for Yakoo or her FC, and didn't really care about improving when they deleted the evidence of their bad actions; if Yakoo was to allow them to remain, how would the other members of her company interpret her inaction?

[Arazehl]

I am in a small FC of just friends and let me tell you drama is not exclusive to the large ones. Our already tiny FC has busted up twice, with vital founding members transferring to other servers (or datacenters) and whoever was left limping on the best they could.

Hopefully, with Fellowships, we'll see the disenfranchized band together, nomad style instead of seeking FCs. Sure there's buffs and bonuses but essentially FCs are just an extra chanel and apartment--depending on how serious you are about crafting/subs. If they tweak the Fellowship system (like give us call letters and such) I can see a huge shift in Fellowships over FCs. Only time will tell however. I personally look forward to it.

I don't know what kind of FC you once belonged to, but this thread does show me that there many types of FC's that are out there. No an FC doesn't have to be large to have drama, but I find that when a leader allows negativity to creep in or the leaders become like dictators and partake in gossip of it's members it's the beginning of a downhill spiral for any FC. Negativity only breeds more negativity. If your FC broke up twice, then it's only to question why.

As far as Fellowships, I don't see them replacing any good, reputable FC out there. Especially FC's that are like a Band of Brothers, Family, supportive, encouraging and always has your back. Ones that has members that comes back , when they venture forth to experience other FC's to find they are welcomed back with open arms. Fellowships can never replace that.

[Canadane]

No they aren't.

Think of it this way.

You are at your job. You do something that gets you in trouble. You talk it out and get a warning on your file, and get back to work. Two days later when you come into work, your desk it cleaned out and you've been fired .... over the incident you had already talked about and given a warning because your boss talked to all your co-workers and everyone in the company over what you did.

I don't know about you, but I'd sure be pissed off over it. A warning was ALREADY GIVEN to the players (stated in the OP's first post). But when the OP talked to others in the FC (which IMO should not have been done unless they were officers .... dragging such drama into the open is bad), THAT is when it was said those players should be kicked. I'm in no way saying what the players did was ok in their VOD. But to make a decision, then double down without explaining it to the players why it was changed from a warning to a kick .... yes. That was bad form.

And before anyone says anything, I have ran guilds in EQ, EQ2, WoW, and FF14. SO I know what it's like to be an officer AND a guild leader.

Thank you for understanding it.

[Saefinn]

Agreed with most of the above, Saefinn. I'd like to add that there are rarely ever objectively good decisions one can choose in a situation, just mostly objectively bad ones. In the case of Yakoo, the objectively bad decision would have been to let the people who had been bad mouthing both the FC and its members to remain in the company without any further action. They made it abundantly clear they had absolutely no respect for Yakoo or her FC, and didn't really care about improving when they deleted the evidence of their bad actions; if Yakoo was to allow them to remain, how would the other members of her company interpret her inaction?

Absolutely. I think that's an eloquent way of putting it. And sometimes the only decisions you have available are bad ones too.

But if there's not more to this story, then it sounds like the OP made the right choice.

[CazzT]

No they aren't.

Think of it this way.

You are at your job. You do something that gets you in trouble. You talk it out and get a warning on your file, and get back to work. Two days later when you come into work, your desk it cleaned out and you've been fired .... over the incident you had already talked about and given a warning because your boss talked to all your co-workers and everyone in the company over what you did.

I don't know about you, but I'd sure be pissed off over it. A warning was ALREADY GIVEN to the players (stated in the OP's first post). But when the OP talked to others in the FC (which IMO should not have been done unless they were officers .... dragging such drama into the open is bad), THAT is when it was said those players should be kicked. I'm in no way saying what the players did was ok in their VOD. But to make a decision, then double down without explaining it to the players why it was changed from a warning to a kick .... yes. That was bad form.

And before anyone says anything, I have ran guilds in EQ, EQ2, WoW, and FF14. SO I know what it's like to be an officer AND a guild leader.

Upon further investigation, it was found that a warning was not the correct disciplinary action. Termination should have been the correct action taken. Employee is terminated.

I have seen this.

But we're comparing a job to a hobby. There's no reason Kalin or Yakoo or anyone needs to justify changing her mind about someone who was talking trash about her behind her back. Especially someone who was doing so while streaming, which means they were trashing their guild leader to complete strangers. Only thing I disagree with her on is that she didn't kick them immediately and tried to give them a second change, but that's because I have zero tolerance for people who can't be decent human beings. She sounds like she has more patience for that nonsense, which is not a bad thing.

[Tomoebi]

no job will still hire you after you talk shit behind your boss and got caught lmao

and, its harder to find a job than to find brothel in balmung. you can almost always apply for another fc at any time and get accepted at the very same day, job migt take you a month...

[Jybril]

Yeah that job comparison doesn't cut it.
This could be like a regular friend situation.

Friend is talking behind your back, calling you names with others in front of god forsaken anyone and yeah, you talk to them about it, while riding in circles and then be like 'just don't do it again..' but you can later on think if you still wanna be their friend and cut them off.

if I had a friend who was a complete doodoo head I'll just drop them. not gonna sit here and have my feelings hurt. so you drop them and they come back with other friends to harass you and other of your friends with randoms and ppl you don't like. that right shows complete immaturity and they are worth it.
as a matter of fact, they're bullying.

if yakoos member really felt bad they would actually try and talk again, not gang up and being ppl to pitchfork and mob.
whole things sounds like high school...
( excuse typos and formatting I'm on mobile )

[Yakoo]

No they aren't.

Think of it this way.

You are at your job. You do something that gets you in trouble. You talk it out and get a warning on your file, and get back to work. Two days later when you come into work, your desk it cleaned out and you've been fired .... over the incident you had already talked about and given a warning because your boss talked to all your co-workers and everyone in the company over what you did.

I don't know about you, but I'd sure be pissed off over it. A warning was ALREADY GIVEN to the players (stated in the OP's first post). But when the OP talked to others in the FC (which IMO should not have been done unless they were officers .... dragging such drama into the open is bad), THAT is when it was said those players should be kicked. I'm in no way saying what the players did was ok in their VOD. But to make a decision, then double down without explaining it to the players why it was changed from a warning to a kick .... yes. That was bad form.

And before anyone says anything, I have ran guilds in EQ, EQ2, WoW, and FF14. SO I know what it's like to be an officer AND a guild leader.

Even if you were in a job and given a warning for something you did wrong, it can also evolve into a dismissal at any given time. If people cannot be good and decent to other people especially those in the FC that they are APART of or anyone for that matter, then they will be removed, if not right then and there, then fast enough rather than leaving it to grow into something even more problematic in future, because the ones who already did something already left their mark. As the leader of my FC, no one influences me to decide, not even my officers. I decide that for myself and the whole entirety of the FC and I will do what I think is best for my FC. My FC members and me included shouldn't put up with that kind of floaty BS.

Also, it takes real people to call their own friends out for their wrong doings, not standby them and say nothing at all.

[AngelCheese77]

Sorry for taking a bit to respond. RL and all that.

So first ...

Well, here's two things:

1) False equivalence. Being in an FC is nothing close to having a job. Being in an FC has nowhere near the level of responsibilities placed on you that being at a job does, nor does it give actual monetary reward for fulfilling those responsibilities. A closer equivalence would be going to a coworker's place to play some D&D with their friends, actively making the game worse by having a good time at their expense, getting pulled aside and told to tone it down, before the rest of the players and the DM decide that they really don't want to play with you in their game, and not inviting you next time. Sure, it can be "bad form" for whatever that's worth, but maybe don't be an asshole in the first place. It's really not that hard.

Fair enough. So in your response, let's think of it in that way.

How many people here would NOT be upset if that happened to you? That you did something and your friend said "Hey man, look, can you just tone it down a bit? You were kinda acting like an a-hole and it wasn't cool" and both parties agree on that "warning" and everyone is cool. Then you go to your next DnD session and your friend stands in the door and is like "Hey man, look, I talked it over with the crew and their girlfriends and family, and like ... we don't want you in our DnD group anymore so ... bye" and shuts the door on you. No explanation, nothing else. Can you seriously tell me that just that part of the incident wouldn't confuse and anger you?

Like, for actuals, why are you guys trying to defend the obvious offenders here for being garbage people?

Oh I'm not defending anyone really. What I'm having is a discussion. A discussion is:

1: consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate
a heated political discussion
OR
2: a formal treatment of a topic in speech or writing
A discussion on the topic is included in the first chapter.

And usually discussions have opinions that aren't liked. And that's cool. But to come out and villainize those who have a differing opinion and see something differently is not helpful in any way. And that is what many here are doing to myself and Canadane who see it differently.

Upon further investigation, it was found that a warning was not the correct disciplinary action. Termination should have been the correct action taken. Employee is terminated.

I have seen this.

But we're comparing a job to a hobby. There's no reason Kalin or Yakoo or anyone needs to justify changing her mind about someone who was talking trash about her behind her back. Especially someone who was doing so while streaming, which means they were trashing their guild leader to complete strangers. Only thing I disagree with her on is that she didn't kick them immediately and tried to give them a second change, but that's because I have zero tolerance for people who can't be decent human beings. She sounds like she has more patience for that nonsense, which is not a bad thing.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough and that's on me. I can have difficulty with that sometimes.

I'm not saying what the OP did wasn't "justified" in any way. What I am saying is how they went about it was "bad form".

1. They had already talked to the offenders, and an agreement was reached to give a warning.
2. The OP then spoke about the issue in a public forum (FC chat) where the OP then changed their decision for a warning to expulsion.
3. The OP then made a public post about the expulsion
4. The OP did not explain the reasoning for the change from warning to expulsion.

These four steps are bad form in their own right. These events then lead to the chain of events that followed. Am I saying it was a good idea for the expulsed players to act how they did? Nope. But can I sympathize with them because of how human emotions work? I think we all can in some way. I really want you all to think of any situation where you were told one thing, then something different another a day that had you upset.

Even if you were in a job and given a warning for something you did wrong, it can also evolve into a dismissal at any given time. If people cannot be good and decent to other people especially those in the FC that they are APART of or anyone for that matter, then they will be removed, if not right then and there, then fast enough rather than leaving it to grow into something even more problematic in future, because the ones who already did something already left their mark. As the leader of my FC, no one influences me to decide, not even my officers. I decide that for myself and the whole entirety of the FC and I will do what I think is best for my FC. My FC members and me included shouldn't put up with that kind of floaty BS.

Also, it takes real people to call their own friends out for their wrong doings, not standby them and say nothing at all.

I never called you a bad FC leader or a bad friend, so I apologize if anything in my post relayed that.

But as an outsider on a public forum, you need to understand that there will be people who were not there at the time that see things differently. And apparently I am one of them.

IN MY OPINION (caps so people see that) both sides could have done better. I hope this doesn't happen to you again in the future, and you enjoy the game.