Geomancer and Chemist - A Better Idea

[Archwizard]

Also the balance of the game right now needs more healers and more hybrid melees(should they follow my hopes and seperatr hybrids from standard melee over time like casters and ranged) than anything else.

And there are plenty who would absolutely disagree, stating that 1) the three healers we have now still need to be balanced against one another, and 2) that melee jobs are already the most abundant DPS of the three categories.

But thank you for highlighting that this is primarily based on "your hopes" that Square will implement jobs exactly as you vaguely envision them, rather than in practical ways that emphasize gameplay.

Again: My point isn't "They should add Chemist, but as a ranged!" it's "There are more holistic designs for Chemist as a ranged than as a healer, and if you want to add it at all -- much less as a healer -- impress me."

I'm sorry, but chemist/alchemist is just too ingrained in Square Enix's history as a healer to be anything else. It's like taking black mage and suddenly saying it can heal effectively.

That's hyperbole.

Chemist is only represented as a combat job in two numbered entries, and of those, one of them is as Rikku's Overdrive, which has powerful offensive AND defensive applications -- more offensive results, in fact, than recovery. It's only "ingrained as a healer" in side-entries like Tactics, where the gameplay is far removed from the numbered entries, much less an MMO. At its best, Rikku is a hybrid as a Chemist; at its worst, its a healer in games where Potions are significant.

By contrast, Black Mage has never had party healing skills. In fact it would be better used as an example of why not to add Geomancer as a healer, given its historic dearth of healing skills.

I know a lot of FFXIV players haven't played older Final Fantasy games, but there are certain roles that just need to be kept as they are known for. Respecting the history of the franchise is important for these fans.

And I find it deeply amusing to simultaneously see:

• They need to do X exactly as it was in previous entries to respect the history of the franchise! For their FAAAANS!
• Oh my gosh, you can't just throw out X because it's not gonna be 1:1 in every entry, that's too literal.

In this case, talking about how Chemist is "deeply ingrained" as a healer, while ignoring the most fundamental aspects of its healing in previous entries.

But to address you directly: I think that's a restrictive way of thinking, especially with a series notorious for implementing numerous hybrid jobs (such as Scholar, Time Mage, Red Mage, Dancer, Dark Knight, Ninja, etc) and an entry that does its best to fit them to the Holy Trinity of MMO Design.

For the future of the series, and the current game, chemist needs a stronger place in the franchise as a healer once more.

Bit dramatic. I don't think the series is in jeopardy just because they don't have Chemist as a combat job. Again... two numbered entries.

[Vendalwind]

And there are plenty who would absolutely disagree, stating that 1) the three healers we have now still need to be balanced against one another, and 2) that melee jobs are already the most abundant DPS of the three categories.

But thank you for highlighting that this is primarily based on "your hopes" that Square will implement jobs exactly as you vaguely envision them, rather than in practical ways that emphasize gameplay.

"Exactly as you Vaguely" is a very nice subtle way to throw shade. So is the bit implying it'd be impractical. You just haven't given it the time of day cause yeah, all ground aoes does sound gross hahaha. But seriously on an insta cast healer that has all windows between attacks or basic single target heal to weave playing with your mouse for constant ground AoE targeting would be very interesting.

To re-iterate im talking about making a healer with almost no cast times, weave ground AOE busy, that therefore doesn't have to be clicking on the target list. That sounds very interesting to me.

I also don't NEED chemist implemented as a ground AoE. i was throwing that out as a random idea not something that has to be done. You seem to think making chemist a unique functional healer would somehow end up bad or would step on the toes of the other healers too much. I frankly think making it a ranged or caster would do that worse. So I suggested a way to make it unique in both playstyle and function whether it would work out to be dps/heal balanced on release or not.

I may now flesh it out TBH. cause the more i think about it the more interesting it seems to me. better than my homogenized astro anyways.

ANYWAYS
Another healer is absolutely most healthy for the balance of the game. I'm not talking healer balance among the role tho, im talking class distribution per role and thus class pick distribution balance.

Currently in content class ratios have a flood of dps which is the primary reason dps are seldom the adventurer in need. And healers have the most favorable ratio.
DUNGEONS
Tanks 4:1
Healers 3:1
DPS 10:2 (5:1)

ALLIANCE RAIDS (the one scenario where tanks have bad role distribution)
Tanks 4:1
Healers 3:2
DPS 10:5

RAIDS (the most important content, but this is the piece that's subject to perspective)
Tanks 4:2 (2:1)
Healers 3:2
DPS 10:4 (5:2)
OR
Casters 3:1.3
Ranged 3:1.3
Melee 4:1.3

Melee have the worst to class to slot ratio making them the hardest to get into UNLESS the game is balanced the way it currently is where melee are generally preferred just cause of dps and then are a fairly safe bet for the 4th dps slot.(which i don't necessarily think healthy)

Because the game started with 2 melee and 2-3 ranged(cant remember if SMN was available on release). 2 tank 2 healer (and quickly added NIN a couple patches later 2.4 i think?)
4 ranged have been added. 4
2 melee have been added.
Healer and then Melee as a role have seen the least growth.


My Hoped for proposition is to break NIN from melee and create the hybrid role with the next expac while adding Chemist(CHM) as healer and Beastmaster(BST) as a new hybrid.
Similar to how phys ranged were broken from caster.

I would love to see that 4th spot become less debated, by making the distribution
This would make role distribution better at 8 man lvl, and closer to balanced at 4 man lvl than adding another tank or ranged (mag or phys) would.

4 healers
4 tanks
3 casters
3 ranged
3 melee
3 hybrid

This would put us in a position where if more classes were added a tank and a healer would make things more distribution balanced than ever before.

NIN with the most recent update literally gained the ability to operate optimally at range for up to ten seconds if they plan ahead in a fight (two ninjutsus saved up + Kass + TCJ), and have a caster element of having to stay still in TCJ thus put us into hybrid. Put a beastmaster who fights at melee but can perform SMN style pet actions at ranged in the hybrid role. and put the Mage knight we talked about before in the hybrid role.

That 4th slot would be less disputed and distribution would be balanced. The next expac BST would be introduced and NIN and BST would begin the hybrid role, somewhere down the line another hybrid (mageknight?) would be released and distribution would become perfect.

[Shurrikhan]

My hoped for proposition is to break NIN from melee and create the hybrid role with the next expac while adding Chemist(CHM) as healer and Beastmaster(BST) as a new hybrid.
Similar to how phys ranged were broken from caster.

I don't think it makes sense to make Ninja a full-on hybrid short of at least half its toolkit being reworked, but I'll admit, I'd love to see the game pull away from rigid types and instead allow a broader spectrum of play. I'd prefer that varying degrees of Melee-ness to Ranged-ness, with any given mixture permitable, over solely adding a new class to fill the gap between them, but I suppose the latter would suffice if the more ideal solution were somehow impossible.

As for ground AoEs sounding gross, the reasons are many yet simple:

• They'd be forcibly AoE or split AoE, requiring more precise targeting to maximize.
• Said targeting is near impossible on a controller.
• Even on M&KB, one is unable to click the ground through enemies.
• Ground AoEs cannot be queued.
• Of these above four issues, two can be fixed through the removal of arbitrary limitations, but the other two cannot. Having more than barebone controller support might greatly help ease of control and thereby QoL for controller players, but the ground-targeting AoE would still seem a wholly unnecessary annoyance if forced upon players each time.

[Vendalwind]

Chemist (CHM)

Ah, but I never said I had to convince you it’s not a healer, just that it would be a terrible healer in FF14. That, my friends, is a completely different beast.

I disagree. I think there are myriad ways it could be implemented as both unique and functional as I said above.

Chemist is best known for two particular abilities: enhancing the effectiveness of consumable items they use, and Mix, the ability to combine consumables for unique or more potent effects.

Technically there are 4 FFT games. My point? mix is not the best known move of the chemist/apothecary. Also if you include less cannon ff games FFBE has many chemist job characters. side note but you could say XVs magic was more similar to chemistry.

We’ll continue forward under the general assumption that, much as Bards and Machinists have functionally infinite ammo, Chemist wouldn’t actually be limited to effects related to consumables – although I would consider that the first nail in its coffin, considering the most basic and iconic element of the job would be entirely ignored in its creation.

As I suggested above i don't know that it would be. Consumables can exist in the form of charges. And i think having a healer that doesn't use MP but instead operates on a differently managed resource would be very interesting. And is the depth of development any new class should get anyways. I didn't say this at first cause I figured you might be able to connect the things i mentioned in my first post (charges and insta casts{which was why they occured to me}) with this part of your argument.

From what I’ve seen perusing the all-too-many threads suggesting Chemist, its main draws are thus:

• A non-magical healer that uses pharmaceutical science, and maybe even technology!
• A potion-throwing instant/non-MP healer!
• Use Mix to heal or buff allies!

And that is as far as 97% of those threads go with the design. You can literally make a drinking game out of these threads: just take a swig every time someone suggests implementing Mix as a variation on NIN Mudras, AST Cards or DNC Steps. Finish the bottle in the rare case they pull out cloning some other implemented job’s mechanic, rather than suggesting… anything remotely unique.

Using the fact that there hasn't been enough well thought out fan designs as an argument against the classes creation... doesn't really work. Just because no one has had the time to flesh it out doesn't mean it couldn't be done. in fact this thread is inspiring me to do so.

Here’s the thing: “A potion-throwing healer” is an aesthetic. It dictates the particle effects on your abilities and little else. An aesthetic alone is not enough to design or balance a job, but next to none of the threads that use the “Chemist = healer” buzzwords actually give any in-depth consideration on its gameplay; they mostly just seem to suggest Chemist for lack of a better idea on a fourth healer.
A fully instant or non-MP healing job would be wildly imbalanced, most likely overpowered.

Why would it be overpowered? or wildly imbalanced?
if implemented as I loosely suggested it would be more bursty sure but i mean WHM has Bene so..... But the whole thing is it would be more skill based. Nothing would be truly instant if every good heal had to be ground targeted. It would be skill based and there would still be some delay after dmg before a heal can go out, or learning of the fight to begin the cast pre-emptively.

A “non-magical” healing job would either have to facilitate the creation of a subcategory of Disciple of War with its own role actions and unique gearing from other healers or, more likely, just be coded as a magical healer anyway to use the same stats on gear, particularly with regards to fight mechanics that diminish healing effects or silence spellcasting.
Put those two in the coffin and you got… nothing.

Thats just plain false. Like said it would be realllllllly easy to just convert a few of the role abilities to fit with a trait as i suggested. and Mind/piety as a main stat group still makes complete sense for a chemist, especially when dealing with enchanted potions and things such as holy water.

ALSO silence is a non issue. Silence also turns off a bunch of melee class abilities. Silence in this game isn't really silence any more, its just a form of disabled. You could easily reason around this by having the apothecary need to trigger the effects of potions with a word or something. the point being: silence is a non issue.

Frankly the absolute lack of consideration towards implementation is their downfall, especially when players instantly assume it must be possible to balance such insanity, that it’s just not their job to balance their suggestions, and that such underwhelming suggestions are just as valid and deserving of consideration as more practical ones that did put the time and thought in.

Frankly your lack of confidence in the devs ability to create unique and functional content is insulting to me so...

The real kicker is, the devs have tried! Yoshi-P and Koji-Fox have each gone on record in interviews and Live Letters that they intended to implement Chemist as a gun-toting, potion-throwing healer with Heavensward. However, it was scrapped due to balance difficulties (particularly including Mix), which led to it being split into Machinist (gun-toting tech-xpert) and Astrologian (card “mixing” healer).

Look it up.

The above is a very fair analysis.

TL;DR:
Geomancer should be a Caster DPS, because WHM does healing better.
Your bottle-throwing acid trip would be better off as a Ranged DPS.

I agree btw completely with your analysis of geomancer. but i think there are a lot of flaws in your reasoning behind why chemist wouldn't work as a healer. And I also think bottle throwing as a dps mechanic would end up dumbed down to be either: A rather lame, or B stupid complex.

[Shurrikhan]

And I also think bottle throwing as a dps mechanic would end up dumbed down to be either: A rather lame, or B stupid complex.

Are not explosives, armor-penetrating acids, poison gases, and, say, naphtha all also in the domain of a chemist? It wouldn't have to be just throwing bottles, but rather anything and everything excused by chemistry.

[Vendalwind]

I don't think it makes sense to make Ninja a full-on hybrid short of at least half its toolkit being reworked, but I'll admit, I'd love to see the game pull away from rigid types and instead allow a broader spectrum of play. I'd prefer that varying degrees of Melee-ness to Ranged-ness, with any given mixture permitable, over solely adding a new class to fill the gap between them, but I suppose the latter would suffice if the more ideal solution were somehow impossible.

As for ground AoEs sounding gross, the reasons are many yet simple:

• They'd be forcibly AoE or split AoE, requiring more precise targeting to maximize.
• Said targeting is near impossible on a controller.
• Even on M&KB, one is unable to click the ground through enemies.
• Ground AoEs cannot be queued.
• Of these above four issues, two can be fixed through the removal of arbitrary limitations, but the other two cannot. Having more than barebone controller support might greatly help ease of control and thereby QoL for controller players, but the ground-targeting AoE would still seem a wholly unnecessary annoyance if forced upon players each time.

The controller issue is a serious one i hadn't truly considered.
As for the others tho I disagree based on my experience with DRK and shukuchi.
-You can target through enemies just fine with salted and shukuchi alike. there is no reason that would be a real issue
-Although it is true ground abilities cannot be currently queued... there is no reason to think they couldn't make that function. You could que the ability during the animation lock of the previous gcd, click, and then the cast just wouldn't occur till animation lock ended. That in fact would be a nice QoL for all current ground AoEs.

Also think about it.
Nin wouldn't need to be any more ranged to be considered hybrid. 1 ninjutsu every 20 seconds. thats 1/8th time alone.(2.5 seconds out of 20) With kassatsu (2.5/60) and TCJ (4/120) that is also immobile.
1/8 + 2.5/60 + 4/120 =.2
Were already 1/5 ranged.
1/5th ranged is actually pretty significant.

Are not explosives, armor-penetrating acids, poison gases, and, say, naphtha all also in the domain of a chemist? It wouldn't have to be just throwing bottles, but rather anything and everything excused by chemistry.

That's completely fair. my main thing is i wouldn't want them to just be simple GCDs (lame version) but trying to mix them yourself could be too complex unless they did it like mudras WHICH would piss me off because i don't like it when classes duplicate each-others mechanics. its boring and devalues the original class. You are right tho. my argument you referenced is lame and weak. fear mongering on an unknown as either too simple or too complex is stupid and also shows low faith in the devs.

[Shurrikhan]

...

The more appropriate concern isn't their % GCD uptime, but the continuous stretches available to at-range combat and whether there is any passive loss from being out of melee range. Those continuous stretches are short, and AA damage is indeed lost, failing current Ninja on both counts. A NIN could substitute for a ranged in specific mechanics by banking both mudras and a TCJ, but it would come at significant damage cost, especially in raids with more rDPS.

That's not to say that you couldn't rework NIN into something that could situationally replace a Ranged without loss enough to, well, take a NIN in place of a Ranged when 3 melee wouldn't overcrowd each other due to proximity mechanics, but it'd require further adjustments.

[Archwizard]

My Hoped for proposition is to break NIN from melee and create the hybrid role with the next expac while adding Chemist(CHM) as healer and Beastmaster(BST) as a new hybrid.
Similar to how phys ranged were broken from caster.

Okay, yikes. Where to begin with this.

One, Phys Ranged broke off from Healers, not Casters. Bard originally had the Healer Limit Break. Pedantic perhaps, but with the addition of Dancer it goes to the precedent of Phys Ranged jobs being more support-oriented than Casters.

Two, Pure Hybridization in a Holy Trinity MMO is gonna be an uphill battle, my friend.

side note but you could say XVs magic was more similar to chemistry.

15's Magic... which has you bottling up elemental attacks to make grenades? Gee, can't imagine how one would make Chemist a DPS job with that as a premise.

Using the fact that there hasn't been enough well thought out fan designs as an argument against the classes creation... doesn't really work. Just because no one has had the time to flesh it out doesn't mean it couldn't be done. in fact this thread is inspiring me to do so.

I'm not saying it can't be done. Just that it largely hasn't been -- particularly among those who would suggest it offhandedly. By such reasoning you could attach the name "Chemist" to virtually any job that's a healer, that doesn't mean it would be as satisfying.

You're inspired? Great, excellent, perfect, immaculate. Impress me, because the important thing is making the job unique and attractive so that players will actually be excited to play it. "Potion healer" as it is now is just words on a page.

Why would it be overpowered? or wildly imbalanced?
if implemented as I loosely suggested it would be more bursty sure but i mean WHM has Bene so..... But the whole thing is it would be more skill based. Nothing would be truly instant if every good heal had to be ground targeted. It would be skill based and there would still be some delay after dmg before a heal can go out, or learning of the fight to begin the cast pre-emptively.

• Yes, White Mage has Bene... on a 3 minute cooldown. That is a far cry from creating a healing job that fully uses instants to heal, considering it wouldn't have to worry about mobility for fight mechanics. Without MP as a limiter, not only would it be able to rez pretty much infinitely, but it wouldn't have to worry about different tiers of healing spell.
• You can literally macro ground-targeted abilities to center themselves under yourself or a target. Even without committing that faux pas, the fact you think the placement of a ground-targeted AoE is complicated enough to justify not having a cast bar... says more about you than your design.
• As for the time delay caused by casting: congratulations, it's not a fully-instant healer.

Thats just plain false.

With regards to that entire block, I did say "more likely, just be coded as a magical healer anyway," which is fundamentally the explanation you offered. How is what I said false, exactly?

Frankly your lack of confidence in the devs ability to create unique and functional content is insulting to me so...

It's not lack of confidence in the devs. It's lack of excitement derived from undercooked job concepts. I'm curious why it's insulting to you, however.

[Vendalwind]

First off. just because BRD had healer LB does not mean it was a healer. BRD was never a healer dude. Support yeah you can argue that. but from the beginning it sat in the dps slot.

Also your emphasizing and repeating certain words I'm pretty sure is done with mocking intent. Doesn't help you. doesn't help me.

Yes, White Mage has Bene... on a 3 minute cooldown. That is a far cry from creating a healing job that fully uses instants to heal, considering it wouldn't have to worry about mobility for fight mechanics. Without MP as a limiter, not only would it be able to rez pretty much infinitely, but it wouldn't have to worry about different tiers of healing spell.

Either you misread, failed to read, or glossed over a portion of my post. I actually specifically talked about how res would still have to be handled as a cast bar, AND how casting the spell would consume myriad charges from other moves so the drawback is similar to MP removal. That was a statement I threw out completely off the top of my head on the my first post, but you definitely didn't pay it any heed.

EDIT* i was in part wrong My first post I meant to mention it (cause the thought occurred to me) but i was typing to shorthanded to fully detail it. i did in fact fail to say that raise should still have a cast bar for chemist. I detail it a bit more in a later post but the full detail on what I had in mind (and yes i did have all this in mind back at the first post, I just didn't feel the need to provide more than a few details):
Raise operates with the same cast time as a normal raise.
Swiftcast can still be used for raise.
Swiftcast can also be used to reduce a cast time ability Restock (restock is another move that adds charges to the rest of the chemists main kit.)
Surecast remains the same as it operates as an knockback reducer.
Raise on use Depletes a set amount of charges from other abilities. reducing the chemists ability to heal. *EDIT

You can literally macro ground-targeted abilities to center themselves under yourself or a target. Even without committing that faux pas, the fact you think the placement of a ground-targeted AoE is complicated enough to justify not having a cast bar... says more about you than your design.
[/LIST]

Why do you feel the need to make a personal insult here?
You are right they could be macro-ed. That doesn't mean SE couldn't implement a system preventing this, Additionally you are honing in on one piece of a puzzle that this class would be with destructive intent instead of constructive intent. I can and do say the same about you. your interest in tearing down free form creative ideas says a lot more about you than your ability to design. Point out the problems. Don't insult while doing so.

Here is a way to throw more complexity into it then again just off the top of my head. (notice how easy i can come up with new ideas when presented new information?) Perhaps the cooldowns on Chemists charges only actually counted down when Chemist was immobile. Now Chemist has to deal with all the same difficulty casters deal with that comes with cast bars, immobility effecting gains and dps. (IE chemist was punished every time he had to move regardless) This could be a passive called brew. It would require the Chemist to be immobile to charge certain skills cooldowns.

Also macros suck in this game and you know that.if the QoL i thought about moments ago came into play and ground target moves could be queued then optimal play would always be to work with them un macroed.

As for the time delay caused by casting: congratulations, it's not a fully-instant healer.

Snarky and unnecessary comment. Making such comments only proves to me you would rather insinuate insults than stay on subject and discuss actual creative material. Hey So i disagree. Stop getting bent.

With regards to that entire block, I did say "more likely, just be coded as a magical healer anyway," which is fundamentally the explanation you offered. How is what I said false, exactly?

It's not lack of confidence in the devs. It's lack of excitement derived from undercooked job concepts. I'm curious why it's insulting to you, however.

You say so while shutting out alternative ideas. You claim you want more diverse styles of gameplay and classes. Then you suggest chemist would fail to function as a healer class because it'd be too samey. You shoot down creativity while only accepting creativity at the same time. AND impose limits on the creation of the Chemist class while restricting it in the same way other healers are in the same breath. I mean you provide a cool idea for its resources, but then you say that idea could only be implemented if it were ranged, suggesting healers have to stay similar.

And the reason im insulted is because I think the devs have overall done pretty good jobs at making classes unique, despite recent simplifications. And when people expect less of the devs less will be given. and homogenization will occur more-so in large.
EDIT* perhaps insulted is the wrong word. Perhaps just frustrated because distrusting the devs ability to make something new work personally just bothers me. They can make anything work really. just some things are more difficult to implement than others.

[Vendalwind]

Also on the subject of Nin as Hybrid. I wasn't clear. Actually i failed entirely to say what I wanted.
Just as Phys ranged and caster hold range in common I would want the hybrid to hold melee in common. IE not be a perfect 33 33 33 mix or 50 50 mix. but still primarily melee based but with elements that made them either: more immobile as a caster would be, or able to maintain good uptime at range.

So it would have been better for me to say Hybrid-Melee.