How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Shurrikhan]

Personally, I think enmity management should be the tank sole responsibility if we give them back an enmity combo.

If possible through undermechanics (e.g. something as freely alterable as positioning during GCDs without positional modifiers), I'd prefer everyone have some responsibility in enmity management. But I would hate to see it returned as just yet another CD which 99% of the time we hit immediately upon its refresh. I'd rather avoid any {Invigorate, but for X} style skills altogether except where they enhance the feeling of rhythm and aesthetic of the class in use that is otherwise free of any consideration.

Personally, I'd also rather mitigation play a large part in the alternative to pure damage, rather than merely enmity. Of course, I find Enmity as it stands only a derivative mechanic, as there is no real sense to enmity except a modifier attached to damage. If Enmity actually had more of a sense of something that you can and must edge out as more than just a single point's lead and situationally some safety margin, then my interests would likely shift, but for now it feels like mitigation, not enmity, ought to be the opportunity cost of damage, given that, say, punching someone in the face tends to piss them off more than their guarding their self against the same.

As for the comparison of healer and tank maximal damage, I'd prefer both be nearer to that of DPS (with DPS in turn having a little more flexibility in their rotations if they ever play a larger role in mob manipulation or damage at a given point in time comes to have more impact, rather than just total damage dealt). In that reduction of the output gap, though, should also come a decreased gap in offensive complexity, and I honestly think healers could see their way clear to have a little more complexity in their offensive play without feeling significantly interrupted if their tools were just revised slightly for more flexibility and damage-interplay (without tight or specific timings). Tanks' and Healers' available active/choiceful throughput should reflect their costless throughputs (e.g the strength of passive mitigation and oGCDs by situation and total healing dealt or made unnecessary). If a Healer's oGCDs outperform the combination of a Tank's passive bonus mitigation, the situational advantage of their added eHP, and their mitigation oGCDs combined, then that tank should have the higher damage over time when each have 100% optimized damage uptime. The same comparison could be made between healers (to other healers) and between tanks (to other tanks). The idea should be that each brings an equal amount to the table, though the manner and base allotment of their outputs should differ. (The job with the least passive role-performance should have the most flexibility in what it does, which may itself be a minor advantage where it allows for more situations by which to survive, and the job with the most ability to respond to or counter situations of extreme risk would have the lowest total impact over a more sustained fight, if only slightly -- etc., etc.)

[J-Reyno]

Hey guys, the new ultimate was cleared. Wonder how tanks fare in the game's most difficult content.

https://twitter.com/FFsfia/status/11...998080/photo/1

Oh look, nothing changes. All those damage skills just to do healer levels of damage LOL.

[WhyAmIHere]

Hey guys, the new ultimate was cleared. Wonder how tanks fare in the game's most difficult content.

https://twitter.com/FFsfia/status/11...998080/photo/1

Oh look, nothing changes. All those damage skills just to do healer levels of damage LOL.

Not really all that fair a sentiment, since 1) these guys are "up there" in terms of player skill in the playerbase, so they all should be expected to be pushing higher DPS than the average player, and 2) on average a tank still does more damage than healers.

Besides, only the WHM was pushing tank levels of damage, which has been a consistent complaint since ShB launched.

[Risvertasashi]

Not really all that fair a sentiment, since 1) these guys are "up there" in terms of player skill in the playerbase, so they all should be expected to be pushing higher DPS than the average player, and 2) on average a tank still does more damage than healers.

Besides, only the WHM was pushing tank levels of damage, which has been a consistent complaint since ShB launched.

Oh it gets even better than that.



A "grey" tank does more damage than a 50% percentile average healer. A lot more. Tanks have the lowest skill variation of any classes.

It is only the best of the best that compete with tank damage. Outside of Astrologian, even at the 99th percentile - the top 1% of the game - tanks outperform healers for damage. You have to look at less than 1% of the population to find those "OMG healer outdamaging the tanks!" logs. At the 90th percentile, tanks simply outdamage all healers.

If anything, tank damage seems a bit high for the low amount of skill the jobs ask for. But rather than nerf tanks, perhaps SE should increase the effort required.

[J-Reyno]

Not really all that fair a sentiment, since 1) these guys are "up there" in terms of player skill in the playerbase, so they all should be expected to be pushing higher DPS than the average player, and 2) on average a tank still does more damage than healers.

Besides, only the WHM was pushing tank levels of damage, which has been a consistent complaint since ShB launched.

It's very fair, especially if you're a person who plays with a healer who is capable of consistently capable of reaching very high numbers. Maybe you don't, but that doesn't invalidate the experience of others or change the fact that healers and tanks shouldn't be equal in terms of damage at any level of play, much less in a game like FFXIV where the healer role has active healing duty while tanks pretty much only deal damage.

And you're right that only WHM has tank levels of personal damage, but all of the healers are bringing as much or more raid damage than tanks. AST outstrips every single tank for rDPS while pumping out heals with all of its varied heal skills at the same time.

A "grey" tank does more damage than a 50% percentile average healer.

Let's all take a moment to remember that healers don't even NEED to deal damage, and many do not. Please be aware that there are many healers who will simply opt to not deal damage at every opportunity because... and stay with me here... they don't have to. Remember this when reviewing stats.

If a healer chooses to deal damage whenever they have the opportunity, they get BIG returns. Tanks will always be dealing damage, because that's what tanks do. The gameplay of tanking is dealing damage, so of course they're going to do considerably more than off-brand healers who just poke at things whenever they feel like it.

[Risvertasashi]

Let's all take a moment to remember that healers don't even NEED to deal damage, and many do not. Please be aware that there are many healers who will simply opt to not deal damage at every opportunity because... and stay with me here... they don't have to. Remember this when reviewing stats.

In savage content, which the graphs are for, this playstyle is not accepted. A healer that refuses to DPS will quickly find themselves kicked from groups, even pug groups.

Also, even were the above not the case, this argument falls down once you get into the high percentiles. Healers in this range are clearly trying to optimize their DPS. But it is a lot harder than "start pushing your DPS nuke and you do as much damage as a tank".

[WhyAmIHere]

It's very fair, especially if you're a person who plays with a healer who is capable of consistently capable of reaching very high numbers. Maybe you don't, but that doesn't invalidate the experience of others or change the fact that healers and tanks shouldn't be equal in terms of damage at any level of play, much less in a game like FFXIV where the healer role has active healing duty while tanks pretty much only deal damage.

I don't know if you run savage, and in that if you do I don't know if you have a static or not. So allow me to give you what experience I have.
On my primal character, I ran with a SCH who consistently in Sigma/Alpha parsed purples, and occasionally orange. He's playing BLM now, but still. I've also done pugging on that character and met plenty of healers with varying skill levels. On crystal, I purely pug savage. I've seen more lackadaisical and lazy healers there than primal, and just as bad tanks and DPS. But where your argument falls apart is "at any level of play." A grey Tank and a grey healer's DPS will be vastly different, and comparing skill levels thusly is the only fair way of judging a jobs, and further any players, potential. Whenever I, on a tank, pugging eden savage on my crystal character, am doing more damage as gnb, than a DPS, does that mean that it's fair to compare me with that DPS considering the difference in skill level?
Apply that to the healer -v- tank damage issue and see how it's the same argument. Like I'm with you, in classic RPG tropes healers should not be doing as much as, near to, or more than the damage output of any non-healer can do. But, XIV doesn't work like a classic RPG in that regard, and holding it into that narrow mindset is inaccurate to how this game's fight encounters function.

And you're right that only WHM has tank levels of personal damage, but all of the healers are bringing as much or more raid damage than tanks. AST outstrips every single tank for rDPS while pumping out heals with all of its varied heal skills at the same time.

WHM, at top tiers, have the potential to not only meet, but exceed similarly skilled tanks. OFC an orange WHM will do more damage than a green tank, that should go without saiyng. But congrats, you understand how healers can do more than just heal and do damage? I mean that's what AST is supposed to do? Bring more rDPS than WHM? duh??

Let's all take a moment to remember that healers don't even NEED to deal damage, and many do not. Please be aware that there are many healers who will simply opt to not deal damage at every opportunity because... and stay with me here... they don't have to. Remember this when reviewing stats.

Aaaaand you don't raid savage. So, I'll be blunt: in savage any, and I do literally mean ANY healer, that does 0 damage and isn't memeing on that group... and stay with me here... is actively preventing the group from clearing and wasting 7 other people's time.
To be fair. In Extreme trials, bar some exceptions, yes A single healer COULD get away with doing nothing but healing... but what else are they doing when there's no damage going out? Wow such an engaging experience, standing around and waiting for something to do.

"Remember this when reviewing stats."
No. Reviewing stats is more than just "are they doing damage?", but it's certainly a good sign of other problems. Like, when your see the healer is spamming heals and you're still dying to the boss? That's a good time to see they're doing something wrong. Sorry if I hurt your feelings, mister WHM in dusk vigil with naught a single piece of gear above level 30, but you're not going to get through the dungeon in this state. (Anecdotal case, but yes this happened to me, and that healer left of their own accord when told that they needed, NEEDED, to get better gear.) So, ... and stay with me here... remember what content you're in when you start to judge the performance of others, and what level of performance is expected of them.

If a healer chooses to deal damage whenever they have the opportunity, they get BIG returns. Tanks will always be dealing damage, because that's what tanks do. The gameplay of tanking is dealing damage, so of course they're going to do considerably more than off-brand healers who just poke at things whenever they feel like it.

Careful, your bias is showing. (As has been mine.)
So obviously you acknowledge healers have opportunities to do damage. So, what's to say that, a healer that is skilled in the game, will be able to utilize their toolkit more adeptly than a novice, to maximize those opportunities and get as many opportunities as possible? Healers have plenty of skills available to them to heal that are oGCDs, which are plenty powerful on their own. But "off-brand healers" are the healers I'd rather take than your ideal healer; one who just stands there and pumps your HP bar to full if it so much as hits 75%. Tanks deal damage because they have to to establish aggro. Otherwise, guarantee we'd see tanks here and elsewhere complaining "why do I have to do damage? cant I just use abilities that hold hate on my enemies?"

Boo hoo. You don't like it that top tier healers are doing damage rivaling equally skilled top tier tanks. If you're not in the same league as those players, judge yourself against your peers, and compare skill levels therein. Don't delude yourself to think you can do the kinds of damage a 95th tank can do unless you yourself are a 95th capable tank. Boo hoo, you don't like healers doing damage? What else would you expect them to do when not healing, emote you to make you feel good about yourself? emote the DPS? be talking in whatever chat channel they're in and not paying attention to what's going on??? Healers doing damage and healing when needed are paying attention to what's going on, which I'd take any day over a lazy healer wanting to be carried through whatever, expecting that "just healing cuz i'm a healer" is going to cut it. Dungeons are one thing, and in that context/content where it's applicable I can tolerate a pure healer. But, personally, from EX trials and on if I see a pure healer I see some lazy sack wasting mine and everyone elses time.

[J-Reyno]

In savage content, which the graphs are for, this playstyle is not accepted.

It's not a matter of whether or not it's accepted, it's a matter of what's happening. You're right, though, there aren't going to be a lot of savage healers who are dealing no damage at all, but the point stands. Lower skilled healers have trouble finding windows to deal damage, and many will opt to skip damage at times to focus on healing (suboptimally) or deal with mechanics.

Lower skill tanks don't stop dealing damage to take care of tank responsibilities, because dealing damage is what tanks do. Tanks, unlike healers, will always be dealing damage no matter their level of skill.

Furthermore, even if you personally feel like the skill variance of tanks is not wide enough to justify more damage, that is not the fault of the players and players should not be punished for questionable design. And let's be clear about the design flaw with these roles: tanks should not be given 10-15 damage skills and spend their entire gameplay doing very little else other than dealing damage, only to struggle to deal as much damage as a healer, or even less in many cases. If SE determines they need a higher skill ceiling, then by all means please do that.

Not that I feel like your assessment of skill-to-damage ratio is appropriate, because I don't, but if we were to agree with that line of reasoning then tank damage at present remains an issue because it punishes players for something that's entirely out of their control. The real solution would be to increase tank damage now while working on changes to the tank role to later increase the skill required for more damage.

[J-Reyno]

But where your argument falls apart is "at any level of play." A grey Tank and a grey healer's DPS will be vastly different, and comparing skill levels thusly is the only fair way of judging a jobs, and further any players, potential. Whenever I, on a tank, pugging eden savage on my crystal character, am doing more damage as gnb, than a DPS, does that mean that it's fair to compare me with that DPS considering the difference in skill level?

You misunderstand what "at any level of play" means. This is assuming the players are of similar levels of skill, no matter what that level is. Meaning that no, comparing your damage as a GNB to a much less skilled DPS is not appropriate. If a GNB were doing more damage than any dps at the same skill level, however, that would be a problem. And that's what "at any level of play" means, GNB should not be doing more damage than a similarly skilled DPS regardless of the skill level of the players.

Like I'm with you, in classic RPG tropes healers should not be doing as much as, near to, or more than the damage output of any non-healer can do. But, XIV doesn't work like a classic RPG in that regard, and holding it into that narrow mindset is inaccurate to how this game's fight encounters function.

I do think it's pretty similar, and RPGs are not the only games that have healers. Other MMOs, MOBAs and even some shooters have healers or medics, and they are not more damage capable than dps or tank classes for good reason.

But sure, you can say that the damage distribution of the roles in FFXIV doesn't matter because as long as everyone is bringing their best and there is a reason to have the roles then who is doing more damage between two roles that are both required doesn't matter. Which is something this thread has been over more than once. It's ridiculous to have the tank role have 5 times as many damage skills as healers and spend its entire gameplay dealing damage and nothing else, only to bring the same or less damage. It makes the role feel less impactful.

But "off-brand healers" are the healers I'd rather take than your ideal healer; one who just stands there and pumps your HP bar to full if it so much as hits 75%.

Your interpretation of my ideal here is what I'm referring to as an off-brand healer and I'm not sure what part of my comment made you feel like my ideal healer spams heals. Find and quote that part so I can clarify for you.

Tanks deal damage because they have to to establish aggro. Otherwise, guarantee we'd see tanks here and elsewhere complaining "why do I have to do damage? cant I just use abilities that hold hate on my enemies?"

No, tanks deal damage because that is the gameplay of tanks. Otherwise the off-tank could literally afk most of many fights, and I've certainly seen more healers that don't dps than off-tanks that don't dps. I'm interested in seeing examples of these non-damaging tanks to back up this claim. Please and thank you.

To avoid quote spam I'm just going to add that you've decidedly to falsely assume that I don't think healers should deal damage for some reason. That's not what the discussion is about and I urge you to re-read. If you do find where I've said anything about healers choosing to maximize damage being a bad thing, then go ahead and quote that for me too so I can explain how you've misread my comments.

[Kabooa]

Hey guys, the new ultimate was cleared. Wonder how tanks fare in the game's most difficult content.

https://twitter.com/FFsfia/status/11...998080/photo/1

Oh look, nothing changes. All those damage skills just to do healer levels of damage LOL.

Combined Tank damage is higher than combined healer damage by a significant margin in this screenshot.

You should be happy.