How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Ivellior]

Comparing an mmo with a single player game isn't really appropriate, you should compare tank in FFXIV with tanks in FFXI. The whole system is based on the trinity that was established for MMO and has been pretty much standardized since the age of everquest.
If you want the game to be a trinity game it should follow those standards. And in those standards tanks don't do damage. DPS do.
If you want to have a hybrid system, that is fine too. But this isn't a hybrid system, it's supposed to be a trinity one.

As for what makes a tank, is the core tenets of the class: Mitigation and enmity. What a tanks need to do is take the least damage possible and keep the boss/adds on itself. That is the very definition of an mmo tank.

Tanks shouldn't have the same cookie-cutter defensive kit (an 20% cooldown, a 30% cooldown, a short cooldown, an invlu cooldown etc). Tanks defensive kit now is a just a copy/paste with a few changes on top of it. Tanks should also have a slew of abilities concerning gaining and maintaining enmity. There used a be a dps combo and skills which specifically increased enmity, now there are none, it's just a toggle.

Maximizing damage become a thing in HW because the dps checks were too tight. Before that tanks actually melded parry and vit. What happened in HW is that SE made savage raids dps so tight that it made it impossible to clear unless you maximized damage everywhere (including tanks). And you still couldn't clear if you anyone died once. After that it became about "maximizing damage".
During HW it was also the age when tanks had the most distinctive defensive play-style. What killed that defensive play-style was, again, raids. In the raids there was only magical damage, so PLD became the defacto "detrimental" tank since it had neither good damage, nor the defensive kit to deal with magical damage.
All these side effects from raiding trickled down to the general perception resulting in an increased difficulty for the normal playerbase, causing a general perception that tanking was hard and, as a result a decrease in tanks.
It was expected for people to tank in dps stance => people couldn't keep enmity / tanking was more complex/hard => less tanks.
It was expected for people to play DRK or WAR => people had to play the most complex tanks => people found taking difficuly => less tanks.
This resulted in tanks being seen as hard and complicated which caused the subsequent dumbing down in the next two expansions.

SE wants tanks to be more of a traditional mmo tank (rather than a dps), but at the same time they want to keep a sizable population of tanks, which resulted in curbing tank damage throughout the expansions and making tanks simpler.
It's obvious that SE doesn't want tanks to do damage from all the steps they have taken during the years to curb tank damage (like locking accessories, removing main stat materia melds, and the tank stance changes), so asking for more damage isn't really going to wield any results. Even if you find a way to do more damage it will just get nerfed in the next expansion.
The underlying issue with the tanks isn't the damage output. It's the fact that they are too homogenized.

[ReiMakoto]

First of all, doing damage is against the core and class identity for tanks. You are playing a dps to do damage, a healer to heal and a tank to tank. That is the reason people play tanks and it should be the primary reason to play a tank. If E5S and E6S are able to be solotanks then that is just fine as well. I see no problem with that. People that want to do damage can just roll dps. Finally if SE wants both tanks to perform their intended role (ie tank) they can just add more adds, 2 bosses in the encounter, or force tank swapping with debuffs like they did in the past.

Besides, if we follow what you say and increase tank damage (without decreasing dps damage) and then increase the dps checks (to offset), that will just make savage raids harder and we will end up with Alexander all over again where it almost killed raiding because people couldn't clear A3S. To make it work properly, the devs to do a ton of extra work to properly adjust the dps checks. And all that would be just in order to get tanks do more damage and feel like dps, which they shouldn't be in the first place. It's a different type in the trinity. As for people that want to have more fun because they want to see bigger number they can just play a dps class.

In Final Fantasy Tanks have always dealt damage as far back as th earliest games. In FF4 Cecil was the Tank, and he had the best strength and hit like a truck, FF3, Knights could also hit hard while having high defence, same with Vikings. FF6 had counter based tank in Cyan again dealing big damage, as well as machinist also being tanky and dealing big hits. FF7 Barret has the second highest strength in the game, as well as the highest defence and health, again he hit hard and worked amazing with the cover materia, again making him a tank. FF8 Squall was the highest vit and health party memeber by default, and is refered to as a knight, making him the tank, and he is also the highest damaging character in the game. Steiner in FF9 could pull out really high damage despite being the tank. I could go into the spinoffs too but I feel like I'm making my point. You have an idea of how tanks should be in a trinity system that is not based on series history, nor the games history itself.

Making the tank role harder is not a bad thing if that is how they would make tanks dps bigger, but if they just flat increased tanks dps and changed enrages to match, nothing should change, its just the proportions that are different, unless the tank was bad at their rotation in the first place and being carried by dps, in which case why are the tanks allowed to put in less effort?

[Mithia]

Well, you need a fair share of homogenization. The philosophy design where either tank provides something different to the party is, in the long run, pointless as long as it's just a race against time to deplete the health of the boss.

If we look back at HW, PLD was absolutely shunned from endgame raiding due to a lack of DPS potential altho it provided more party mitigation.


At this point, tanks are homogenized while still maintaining their class identity. And that to be fair is a big success as there is no wrong tank to take for the content. In HW it was common to see statics run 2x Warriors.

Anyway, tanks are in a good place right now, especially in later savage fights and ultimates tanks are expected to use their abilities to help the group survive damage for certain abilities while at the same time dealing considerable damage. Also, tank busters do hurt, try to take a Shiva TB with only one CD and see yourself deleted.

[MerlinCross]

Also I find it funny that we might have the "Holy Trinity" but most talks are about wanting to deal more damage or how boring it is to deal effective damage. If this oh so Holy Trinity is supposed to be followed, why do we CARE about Tank and Healer Damage?

Oh right, Fights are designed around stupid tight enrages that need the damage to punch through. Okay fine but why do we need the Trinity if Damage is that important?

I just find this to be a circular discussion.

[Kalise]

Also I find it funny that we might have the "Holy Trinity" but most talks are about wanting to deal more damage or how boring it is to deal effective damage. If this oh so Holy Trinity is supposed to be followed, why do we CARE about Tank and Healer Damage?

Because there's not enough mechanics and tools to create engaging and rewarding gameplay via "Tanking" and "Healing".

The only thing that there is to do in encounters is punch the boss. The only difference of gear and skill is punching the boss more gooder. There's no room for optimizing mitigation or enmity control for Tanks, or healing efficiency for Healers (Which often will pave the way for adding in more damage, since that's the only thing that makes encounters go faster. Not just about beating enrages, but having an appreciable effect when you get better/stronger) only damage.

Okay fine but why do we need the Trinity if Damage is that important?

This is exactly an issue with the current design, which I mentioned earlier:

Either that, or if they continue to make Tanking and Healing requirements so minimal, just go the whole hog and delete the Tank and Healer roles and just give everyone Rampart, Assize, Swiftcast and Raise and tune every job as a DPS who can pop a CD when the boss does a thing.

With how little engagement there is with the actual support roles, just having everyone get the skills necessary to pop when bosses do their scripted skills has little difference to the current "Trinity" system.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Oh right, Fights are designed around stupid tight enrages that need the damage to punch through. Okay fine but why do we need the Trinity if Damage is that important?

So what, you suggest they remove enrage timers? then where's the challenge in that, it makes things pointless. If you can't do it, you then either, accept that you can't clear, or git gud and or get better gear until you can beat it. Clears shouldn't be just handed to every player that walks into the instance on a silver platter, there is no fun in that, people already complaining there nothing to do for tanks and healers, removing enrage timers will only further destroy any semblence of difficulty left in the game. Personally I wish they would add enrage timers back to casual content again and stop pandering to the casual scrubs that don't bother their arse to learn how to play their job let alone read tooltips.

Removing the trinity would also remove the difficult aspect from the encounters just as much as the enrage timer, not to mention force devs to redesign the game from the ground up removing the addition of new content. As limited as the functions are for tanks and healers which differ them from dps, the functions are still pretty clear.

Honestly they need to add more tank responsibilty, and aggro was never really one for tanks since late HW. (As a paladin main I approve of aggro combos being deleted from the game, nothing more irritating having to pick up adds as OT while obliterating the entire flow of your rotation). Removing auto-positioning bosses, no more side of the arena bosses, making more use of adds during boss fights, not as a segment when the boss runs off for a minute, which needs swapping boss and add from time to time between tanks, while also requiring CC for certain abilities, stop with bosses glued to the side of the arena they ain't fun or engaging. (yes I mentioned this twice, but they really are boring fights). While I will still agree with tanks needing a bit more damage, the gap is just widening further and further as the expac goes on between tanks and dps.

As for healers, they need to tune down their oGCD heals, they have way too many and they're already pretty broken in terms of potency, requiring more GCD healing than current would be a move in the right direction I think, while allowing them still quite some time to dps, but not as frequent as it is now. I don't play healer that often, so I won't speak much of it, but I would also like to see more DoTs return to healers to manage, one is just not enough Imo.

[MerlinCross]

So what, you suggest they remove enrage timers? then where's the challenge in that, it makes things pointless. If you can't do it, you then either, accept that you can't clear, or git gud and or get better gear until you can beat it. Clears shouldn't be just handed to every player that walks into the instance on a silver platter, there is no fun in that, people already complaining there nothing to do for tanks and healers, removing enrage timers will only further destroy any semblence of difficulty left in the game. Personally I wish they would add enrage timers back to casual content again and stop pandering to the casual scrubs that don't bother their arse to learn how to play their job let alone read tooltips.

Removing the trinity would also remove the difficult aspect from the encounters just as much as the enrage timer, not to mention force devs to redesign the game from the ground up removing the addition of new content. As limited as the functions are for tanks and healers which differ them from dps, the functions are still pretty clear.

Honestly they need to add more tank responsibilty, and aggro was never really one for tanks since late HW. (As a paladin main I approve of aggro combos being deleted from the game, nothing more irritating having to pick up adds as OT while obliterating the entire flow of your rotation). Removing auto-positioning bosses, no more side of the arena bosses, making more use of adds during boss fights, not as a segment when the boss runs off for a minute, which needs swapping boss and add from time to time between tanks, while also requiring CC for certain abilities, stop with bosses glued to the side of the arena they ain't fun or engaging. (yes I mentioned this twice, but they really are boring fights). While I will still agree with tanks needing a bit more damage, the gap is just widening further and further as the expac goes on between tanks and dps.

As for healers, they need to tune down their oGCD heals, they have way too many and they're already pretty broken in terms of potency, requiring more GCD healing than current would be a move in the right direction I think, while allowing them still quite some time to dps, but not as frequent as it is now. I don't play healer that often, so I won't speak much of it, but I would also like to see more DoTs return to healers to manage, one is just not enough Imo.

No, I don't suggest removing enrage timers as if that's the cause, may as well just be beating on a sandbag. But we've been discussing how tight some of these enrage/DPS checks are since Heavensward, and what I count the beginning of the decline of 14's oh so Holy Trinity by demanding Tank and Healers output far more DPS than before. Need I bring up Faust?

I do agree, Tanks need more things to do in battle but in the current community, I can't see them adding enough to change how the tank game is played without it being cheesed or complained about. Adding Aggro back in and making it matter seems to be a hot button issue, along with giving the tanks more to do besides.... be a blue DPS.

So we're stuck in a game with the Holy Trinity that doesn't actually value two of them, in a battle system so scripted and tight the only lever we have of control is DAMAGE, with a community that will hear of nothing other than pushing damage as that's all that matters, and a group of Devs that are either too scared to upset their community or too unwilling to change up a formula that DOES work regardless of how much complaining there is about it.

Yeah. I suggest just ripping out the Trinity now and getting it over with. Either way at the end of the day, to solve the issue I believe we would have to get the battle system redesigned to SOME degree. And because Damage is the only thing that matters and is cared about now, might as well head in that Damage heavy focused direction as opposed to reeling the community back into something closer to the Trinity.

I'm just tired of some people holding up "BUT THE TRINITY" as a defense only to see them turn around and demand more Damage because..... well those parts of the Trinity need it.

[Khimer]

Why can't they just go back to HW scaling and make weakness affect attack power directly? If what I said is impossible please explain and correct me.

[Shurrikhan]

Why can't they just go back to HW scaling and make weakness affect attack power directly? If what I said is impossible please explain and correct me.

I don't see why it would make any difference, given that all damage would be based on AP? Even if you have only 70% of the AP of a DPS, losing 30% of your AP still costs the same portion of your damage as it would a DPS.

[Kabooa]

I don't see why it would make any difference, given that all damage would be based on AP? Even if you have only 70% of the AP of a DPS, losing 30% of your AP still costs the same portion of your damage as it would a DPS.

They want to do it under the assumption that they keep the strength, instead of the more likely case that they just cut the strength again.

Or one better where they get monkey pawed again and all their potencies get slash and burned.